back to indexDr. Duncan French: How to Exercise for Strength Gains & Hormone Optimization | Huberman Lab #45
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Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,
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where we discuss science and science-based tools
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for everyday life.
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I'm Andrew Huberman,
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and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
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at Stanford School of Medicine.
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Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Duncan French
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as my guest on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
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Dr. French is the vice president of performance
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at the UFC Performance Institute,
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and he has over 20 years of experience
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working with elite professional and Olympic athletes.
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Prior to joining the UFC,
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French was the director of performance science
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at the University of Notre Dame.
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And he has many, many quality peer-reviewed studies
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to his name, exploring, for instance,
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how the particular order of exercise,
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whether or not one performs endurance exercise
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prior to resistance training or vice versa,
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how that impacts performance of various movements
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and endurance training protocols,
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as well as the impact on hormones,
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such as testosterone, estrogen,
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and some of the stress hormones, such as cortisol.
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He's also done fascinating work
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exploring how neurotransmitters,
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things like dopamine and epinephrine,
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also called adrenaline, can impact hormones,
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and how hormones can impact neurotransmitter release.
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What's particularly unique about Dr. French's work
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is that he's figured out specific training protocols
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that can maximize, for instance, testosterone output
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or reduce stress hormone output
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in order to maximize the effects of training
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in the short term and in the long term.
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So today you're going to learn a lot of protocols,
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whether or not you're into resistance training
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or endurance training, you will learn, for instance,
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how to regulate the duration of your training
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and the type of training that you do
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in order to get the maximum benefit
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from that training over time.
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So whether or not you are somebody
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who just exercises recreationally for your health,
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whether or not you're an amateur or professional athlete,
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or whether or not you're just trying to maximize your health
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through the use of endurance and or resistance training,
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today's discussion will have a wealth of takeaways for you.
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There are only a handful of people
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working at the intersection of elite performance,
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mechanistic science, and that can do so in a way
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that leads to direct, immediately applicable protocols
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that anybody can benefit from.
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Dr. French also provides some incredibly important insights
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about the direction that sport and exercise
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are taking in the world today
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and their applications towards performance and health.
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Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize
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that this podcast is separate from my teaching
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and research roles at Stanford.
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It is, however, part of my desire and effort
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to bring zero cost to consumer information about science
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and science-related tools to the general public.
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In keeping with that theme,
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I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
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Our first sponsor is Roca.
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And now my conversation with Dr. Duncan French.
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Duncan French, great to see you again.
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Likewise, likewise, thank you.
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I don't often have many Stanford professors
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in the Performance Institute, so I'm really excited.
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Oh, well, this place is amazing
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and you have a huge role in making it what it is.
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The reason I'm so excited to talk with you
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is that you're one of these rare beasts
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that you have been involved in human performance
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and athletic performance at the collegiate level.
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You are obviously very involved in MMA now
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and the UFC Performance Institute.
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And you also had the fortunate experience,
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I like to think, of doing a PhD in,
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what exactly was the PhD in?
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It was exercise physiology.
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Exercise physiology.
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So you're familiar also with designing studies,
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control groups, all the sorts of things that,
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in my opinion anyway, are kind of lacking
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from the internet social media version of exercise science,
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which is that people throw out all sorts of ideas
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about how people should be training,
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what they should be doing and eating
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and not eating and doing.
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And certainly science doesn't have all the answers,
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but I just think it's so rare to find somebody
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that's at the convergence of all those different fields.
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And so I have a lot of questions for you today
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that I'm sure the audience
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are going to be really interested in it.
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Well, listen, I mean, I appreciate that.
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It's very humbling.
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And yeah, I've worked hard to get to where I am,
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but I've always tried to be authentic.
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And I think authenticity comes alongside academic rigor
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and objectivity and insight and knowledge base, right?
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At the end of the day, it's about having confidence,
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having expertise and being able to deliver that expertise
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to, in my world, to athletes.
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And I think that's what I've always tried to do.
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I've tried to have many strings to my bow
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so that I can talk with many different hats on.
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One day I'm talking to a coach,
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the next day I'm talking to an athlete,
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the next day I'm talking to a CEO,
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the next day I'm talking to an academic professor.
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So I think being able to wear those different hats
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is certainly a skillset that I've tried to build
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throughout my career.
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And like I said, I've been blessed to work with,
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I think it was 36 different professional or Olympic sports
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last time I counted.
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So yeah, it's been a wild ride.
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Which of those sports was the most unusual?
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I've worked with crown green bowling,
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which I don't know, as an American guy,
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I don't know how well you know that,
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but basically imagine a 20 foot by 20 foot square of turf
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with a small raise in the middle, i.e. the crown.
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So it slopes to the edges.
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And then you throw out a white jack, a smaller ball,
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and then you roll out larger balls
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to try and get closest to the jack.
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It's a very European thing, let's say.
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But yeah, sports performance at crown green bowling,
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And then to a mixed martial arts fighter
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and everything in between.
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So along those lines,
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could you give us a little bit of your background?
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Where'd you start out?
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Where are you from originally?
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Yeah, I'm from the Northeast of England.
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So I'm from a town called Harrogate, which is in Yorkshire,
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which is a Northern kind of area of the UK.
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Nice sunny weather all year long.
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Yeah, you can imagine, yeah,
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with the two weeks of summer that we get, you know.
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But yeah, I mean, I did my undergraduate studies there
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in sports science.
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I did teacher training
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to be a physical education teacher after that.
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Like most people, I then worked as a high school
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physical education teacher.
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You know, great experience working with kids,
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developing athletic qualities,
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but something in the back of my mind always,
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I wanted to be at the higher end of elite sport.
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You know, I was a failed athlete like many people.
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I represented my country in different sports and things,
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but I never made it professionally.
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So, you know, that little seed was sown in as much
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as I then started to reach out to, you know,
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to different areas to do a PhD,
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whether it was in the UK or also, you know,
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chance my arm took a punt,
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see if we could get over to the States.
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All my buddies were going on, you know,
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gap years after the Finnish university or whatever,
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and going to Bali and hanging out or whatever,
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traveling through Thailand.
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And I figured, well, you know,
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I've always loved the States
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and can I go and kill two birds with one stone
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and do something academic, continue my studies,
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but also do it in a different environment
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and get some life experience.
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And then many, many rejections,
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as I'm sure you're kind of aware from different professors,
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whether it was Roger Naranoka or, you know,
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William Cramer or whatever.
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So you just wrote to these folks?
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I just cold called and sent out information and saying,
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yeah, so have you got any opportunities?
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Pushed back from them all, but you know,
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dogged and kept asking.
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And yeah, Dr. William Cramer,
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who was at Ball State University in Indiana at the time,
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you know, a muscle neuroendocrinologist
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and researcher in muscle physiology
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using resistance training.
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You know, he basically said,
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listen, I can guarantee you funding
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for the first year of your studies, but not the next three.
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Sounds like a typical academic response.
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I can take care of you, but not that well necessarily.
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Yeah, so spoke to my parents and said,
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hey, can we take a punt?
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And they, you know, they were great in supporting me.
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And yeah, long story short,
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came out to begin my PhD at Ball State.
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After a year, Dr. Cramer transferred to Yukon,
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you know, Connecticut in stores in the Northeast there.
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And I transferred to him and with him.
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And yeah, four great years with my PhD
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and getting my PhD with a really prolific research group
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that looked at, you know, neuroendocrinology,
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hormonal work, but using a resistance training
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primarily as an exercise stressor as a major mechanism.
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And then looking at all the different physiologies
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off the back of resistance training.
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Yeah, you guys were enormously productive.
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I found dozens of papers
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on how weight training impacts hormones
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and your name is on all of them.
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And it's remarkable.
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I have a question about this.
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I'll just inject a question
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about weight training and hormones.
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You hear this all the time that doing these big,
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heavy compound movements or resistance training
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increases androgens, things like testosterone,
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DHT, DHEA, and so forth.
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Does anyone know how that actually happens?
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Like what about move, what about in,
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what is it about engaging motor neurons under heavy loads
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sends a signal to the endocrine system,
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hey, release testosterone.
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I've never actually been able to find that in a textbook.
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Yeah, well, I mean-
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And how can I do more of that?
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As much as I know, you know, and again,
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I'm digging out into the annals
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of Duncan French's kind of brain now,
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but yeah, I mean, I think it's a stress response, right?
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It's mechanical stress and it's metabolic stress.
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And these are, you know, the downstream regulation
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of testosterone release at the gonads
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comes from many different areas.
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You know, my work primarily looked at, you know,
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catecholamines and sympathetic arousal.
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So things like epinephrine, adrenalin.
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Epinephrine, adrenalin, you know, noradrenalin.
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How they were signaling,
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they're signaling cascade using, you know,
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the HPA axis releasing cortisol.
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And then, you know, looking at how that also influenced
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the adrenal medulla to release, you know, androgens
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and then signaling that at the gonads.
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That raises an interesting question.
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So in presumably weight training in women,
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people who don't have testes,
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also it increases testosterone.
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Is that purely through the adrenals?
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When women lift weights,
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their adrenal glands release testosterone?
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I mean, that is the only area
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of testosterone release for females.
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And yes, it's the same downstream cascade.
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Obviously the extent to which it happens
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is significantly less in females,
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but that's how you, there's good data out there
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that shows, you know,
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females can increase their anabolic environment,
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their internal anabolic milieu
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using resistance training as a stressor.
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And then they get the consequent muscle tissue growth,
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you know, whether it's tendon, ligament, adaptations,
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you know, the beneficial consequences of resistance training,
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which is driven by anabolic stimuli.
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Yeah, I have two questions about that.
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The first one is something that you mentioned,
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which is that the androgens, the testosterone
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comes from the adrenals under resistance loads in women.
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Is the same true in men?
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I mean, we hear that the testes produce testosterone
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when we weight train for men that have testes,
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but do we know whether or not it's the adrenals
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or the testes in men that are increasing testosterone?
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More or both, a little bit from each?
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The field is divided presently.
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I mean, as much as understanding the acute adrenergic response
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in terms of, you know, anabolic response to exercise
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in an acute phase and the exposure to, you know,
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a stimulus that is stress driven,
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which might be partly from the adrenal glands,
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partly from the gonads, versus a longitudinal exposure
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to anabolic environments, which is primarily driven
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by obviously the gonads and the release,
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the endocrine environment from testosterone release
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So the field is split in terms of how exercise
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is promoting hypertrophy, you know, muscle tissue growth,
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and whether that is very much an adrenal stimuli
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or if that's significant enough in these acute responses
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versus the longitudinal exposure to elevated basal levels
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of anabolic testosterone habitual level.
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So it sounds like with most things it's probably both.
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It's probably the adrenals and the gonads.
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And then you mentioned that testosterone
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can have enhancing effects or growth effects
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on tendon and ligament also.
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You don't often hear about that.
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People always think, you know, testosterone muscle,
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but testosterone has a lot of effects on other tissues
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that are important for performance, it sounds like.
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What's the story there?
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I mean, I think, you know, the testosterone hormone is,
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I mean, listen, there's androgen receptors
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on neural tissue, on neural axons.
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Pretty much everywhere.
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So, you know, the binding capacity of testosterone
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and influence in different tissues within the body
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are touched on, you know, muscle tissue,
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but you know, the ligaments, the tendons, even bone,
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to some extent, you know,
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testosterone has potential to influence that
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in terms of removing osteopenic kind of characteristics,
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So yeah, it's a magic hormone, let's say,
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with many, many end impacts in terms of adaptation.
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I definitely want to get back to your trajectory,
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but as long as we're on the interactions
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between androgens, testosterone and its derivatives,
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and different tissues, you know,
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from the work that you did as a PhD student
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and throughout your career,
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could you say that there's some general principles
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of training that favor testosterone production
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in terms of, that somebody who's not an elite athlete
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could use, somebody who's already adapted
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to weight training somewhat,
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like they know the difference between a dumbbell
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and a barbell, and they know the various movements,
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they're not going to damage themselves,
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but once they're doing that, I mean,
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I've heard shorter sessions are better than longer sessions,
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but in rep loads, now there's a lot of parameter space,
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but if you were going to throw out some of the parameters
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that you think are most important to pay attention to
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for the typical person who's trying to use weight training
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to build or maintain muscle, lose body fat,
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so body recomposition, and or stay strong and healthy
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for sport of a different kind.
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Yeah, so the work that we obviously, you know,
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I was exposed to back in my PhD,
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it was a double-edged sword,
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and as much as testosterone is really stimulated
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by an intensity factor and also a volume factor.
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Now, growth hormone is a little bit different.
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That's largely driven by an intensity factor alone.
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I saw that the growth hormone was driven by volume,
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which just goes to show you, no, no, no, no,
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I think you're probably right,
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which just goes to show you that most of what's out there
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on the internet is completely, not only is it wrong,
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it's usually backwards, so no, trust,
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no, trust your instinct,
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because I think people just make this stuff up, right?
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Because it's very hard to measure growth hormone
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and testosterone, and I can't imagine most of the stuff
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that I see out there, they're taking drips
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and, you know, measuring free versus bound
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and all this kind of stuff,
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but that's what you do in laboratories.
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Right, yeah, you look at total composition
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and you look at how much of that
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is free circulating in the system,
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how much is bound and therefore biologically active,
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bound to receptor creating adaptation.
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But yeah, coming back to testosterone
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in terms of the training strategies,
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it's largely driven by both an intensity
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and a volume factor.
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So if you look at many of the exercise interventions
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that we use to try and investigate
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and interrogate testosterone,
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it was usually, you know, a six by 10 protocol.
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So you touch in about-
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Six by 10 meaning?
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Yeah, six sets of 10 repetitions,
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which is quite a large, you know,
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60 repetitions is quite a large volume
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for a single exercise,
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and that was usually pitched at about 80%
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of a one repetition max intensity.
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Okay, so 80% of the one rep max,
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six sets of 10 reps separated by rest of like-
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Two minutes, which is actually pretty fast,
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Anytime you see these two to three minutes,
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when you're actually watching the clock,
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those two minute rest periods go by pretty fast.
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By the third, fourth set, you're dying for more, yeah.
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And I think, you know, we, you know,
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we formulated that kind of exercise protocol
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to really target, you know, the release of testosterone
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and try and drive up these anabolic environments
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to study the, you know, the endocrine, you know,
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But I think that's the type of protocol
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that is most advantageous
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for driving anabolic environments.
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And that was it for the workout?
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Yeah, I mean, we would do that in a back squat.
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So, you know, multi-joint, you know, challenging exercise,
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multi-muscle, multi-joint, 80% loads
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of your one repetition max, and then six by 10.
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We did play around with, you know,
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your classic German volume type 10 by 10 kind of protocols,
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but they were just unsustainable at that 80%.
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The key to what we also did was we always adjusted
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the loads to make sure that it was 10 repetitions
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that were sustained.
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So if the load was too high and an athlete
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or a participant had to drop the weights
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on the sixth repetition, we would unload the bar
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and make sure they completed the 10 repetitions.
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Bringing me back to the point of it's an intensity
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and a volume derivative that is going to be most advantageous
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for testosterone release.
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That's really interesting.
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And one thing that you mentioned there
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is especially interesting to me, which is you said,
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when you go from six sets of 10 repetitions
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to 10 sets of 10 repetitions,
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it's not as beneficial and might even be counterproductive.
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But to me, the difference between six and 10 sets
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is only four sets.
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It doesn't even sound that much.
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So that sort of hints at the possibility
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that the thresholds for going from a workout
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that increases testosterone to a workout
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that diminishes testosterone
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is actually a pretty narrow margin.
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Yeah, and I think it comes back
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to that intensity factor then, you know,
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what we saw with that 10 by 10 protocol
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really sees pretty significant drop-offs in the load.
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And again, we're trying to stimulate with intensity,
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with mechanical strain through intensity,
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as well as metabolic strain through volume.
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And I think that's the paradigm that you've got to look at
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is that the mechanical load has to come from, you know,
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the actual weight on the bar
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and the volume is the metabolic stimulus.
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How much are we driving lactate?
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How much are we driving, you know, glycogenolysis
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in terms of that type of energy system for, you know,
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executing a 10 by 10 protocol?
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And what we often saw was just a significant reduction
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in the intensity capabilities of an athlete to sustain that.
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So we shortened the volume
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to try and maintain the intensity.
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And you could imagine just taking very long rest,
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keeping the session, being a big lazy bear in training.
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I sometimes do this.
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I tell myself I'm going to work out for 45 minutes
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and then two hours later, I'm done.
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But not because I was huffing and puffing the whole time,
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but because I was training really slowly.
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Is there any evidence that training slowly
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can offset some of the negative effects
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of doing a lot of volume?
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Well, it's an old adage of, you know,
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two responses to your question.
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I mean, the first one I would say, you know,
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there's a difference between 10 sets of six
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and six sets of 10.
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And I think that comes back to the volume conversation.
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You know, six sets of 10 is driving up metabolic stimulus.
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If you're doing 10 sets of six,
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you can probably take it to a higher intensity,
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but you're not going to get the same metabolic load.
link |
You're not going to get the same
link |
internal metabolic environment
link |
that drives the lactate release,
link |
that they will then signal, you know,
link |
further anabolic testosterone release
link |
because of the lactate in your body.
link |
That's a key consideration.
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The rest is often the consideration that's overlooked
link |
out there in general population
link |
and in many sporting environments.
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You know, the rest is as important a programming variable
link |
as the load and the intensity of the load,
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the volume, et cetera.
link |
And yes, if you remove, if you extend the volume,
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if you extend the duration of your rest periods,
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what you're ultimately doing is influencing
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that metabolic stimulus again.
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You're allowing the flushing of the body,
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the removal of waste products, you know,
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lactate to be, you know, removed from the body.
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And then the metabolic environment is reduced.
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So you want, so if I understand correctly,
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you want to create a metabolic stress.
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So the way that I've been training slow and lazy
link |
is not necessarily the best way to go.
link |
I could, in theory, do a 45 or 60 minute session
link |
where I pack in more work per unit time.
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I'm not going to be able to, quote unquote, perform as well.
link |
I won't be able to lift as much.
link |
I'm going to have to, you know,
link |
unweight the bar between sets or maybe even during sets
link |
if I have someone who could do that.
link |
But it sounds like that's the way to go.
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So it's got to be, so this,
link |
the old adage of high intensity short duration
link |
is probably the way to go.
link |
Correct, and you know, in layman's terms,
link |
if the same objective, the same training goal
link |
is just muscle tissue growth,
link |
and we're not talking about maximal strength
link |
or any of those type of parameters.
link |
We're just talking about growing muscle.
link |
If there's an athlete A and they do six sets of 10
link |
with two minutes rest and there's athlete B
link |
that does six sets of 10 with three minutes rest,
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athlete A will likely see the highest muscle gain,
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muscle hypertrophy gains because of the metabolic stimulus
link |
that they're driving with the shorter rest periods.
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Interesting, for all the years that I've spent
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exploring exercise science and trying to get this
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information from the internet and various places
link |
that this is the first time it's ever been
link |
told to me clearly.
link |
So basically I need to put my ego aside
link |
and I need to not focus so much on getting as many reps
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with a given weight and keep the rest restricted
link |
to about two minutes, get the work in,
link |
and then I'll derive the benefits.
link |
I mean, you've absolutely nailed it to be honest.
link |
And again, if you think about human nature
link |
and how we approached, we're inherently lazy, right?
link |
As humans, we want to take that rest.
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We want to take the time out to recover and feel refreshed,
link |
but we're trying to create a training stimulus.
link |
We're trying to create a very specific stimulus
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internal to the body, and that is often driven
link |
by the metabolic environment at that moment in time.
link |
Now, if we allow the metabolic environment to change
link |
by extending the rest periods, we're not going to see
link |
as beneficial gains at the end of it.
link |
So it is very much a motivational and ego thing
link |
rather than saying, okay, I'm going to push my loads
link |
as high as I can and really challenge maximal strength,
link |
do fewer repetitions, take longer periods of time.
link |
It's a completely different approach to training.
link |
It's a different end goal.
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Interesting, and you mentioned lactate.
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So it seems still a bit controversial
link |
as to what actually triggers hypertrophy you hear
link |
about lactate buildup or people, the common language
link |
is the muscle gets torn and then repairs,
link |
but I don't know, does the muscle actually tear?
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I mean, microtrauma.
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Okay, microtrauma.
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Disruption of, you know, within the muscle tissue.
link |
Interesting, and we're talking now
link |
about non-drug assisted people who's, let's just say,
link |
let's define our terms here,
link |
that whose testosterone levels are within the range
link |
of somewhere between 300 and 1,500 or whatever, 1,200,
link |
because it does seem that athletes who take high levels
link |
of exogenous androgens can do more work
link |
and just get protein synthesis from just doing work.
link |
I've seen these guys in the gym, right?
link |
The hotel signs are not that hard to spot
link |
where they're just doing a ton of volume,
link |
not necessarily moving that much weight.
link |
They're just bringing blood into the tissue
link |
and then they're loading up on,
link |
they're eating a ton of protein,
link |
presumably because they're basically in puberty part 15.
link |
Right, they got in their 15th round of puberty
link |
where during puberty, you are a protein synthesis machine.
link |
I mean, that's, to me, that's pretty clear about puberty.
link |
Interesting, so, and then in terms of,
link |
because I know the audience likes to try protocol,
link |
so you described a protocol very nicely.
link |
What about day-to-day recovery?
link |
I mean, can the workout that you described
link |
is intense but short, how many days a week
link |
can the typical person do that and sustain progress?
link |
Yeah, I mean, I think that comes back to your training age
link |
and your training history.
link |
Obviously, there's a resilience and a robustness
link |
with an incremental training age.
link |
So, that's not a protocol that I would advise anyone
link |
to go out and start tomorrow.
link |
They'll be mopping them off the gym floor.
link |
But at the same time, it's also relative, right?
link |
So 80% of your maximum at a young training age
link |
is still 80% versus, I've been training 10 years,
link |
it's still 80%, but yes, the mechanical load
link |
is gonna be significant, it's just more tonnage, right?
link |
But yeah, I think a protocol like that,
link |
we would look at two times a week,
link |
something that's pretty intensive like that,
link |
because again, it comes back to the point you make
link |
is that you really need to be, for want of better terms,
link |
suffering a little bit through that type of protocol,
link |
both in terms of the challenge of the load,
link |
but also being able to tolerate the metabolic stress
link |
that you're exposed to.
link |
It's a bit of a sicko feeling, right?
link |
Because of the lactate that you're driving up.
link |
So I wouldn't promote an athlete doing that type
link |
of modality multiple, multiple times,
link |
unless you're from the realms of bodybuilding,
link |
and then you really, that's the sole purpose
link |
of what you're trying to achieve.
link |
Most athletes in most sports have diverse requirements
link |
in terms of outcomes that they're trying to achieve.
link |
They're not just targeting muscle growth.
link |
Muscle growth is a conduit to increase strength,
link |
increase power, increase speed, obviously.
link |
So yes, trying to get bigger cross-sectional area
link |
of a muscle means that we can produce more force
link |
into the ground or wherever it may be
link |
if we're a locomotive athlete.
link |
But usually sports men and women
link |
are not just purely seeking muscle growth.
link |
They look for different facets of muscle endurance
link |
or maximal muscle power, muscle strength.
link |
So then you've got to be very creative
link |
in how you build the workout.
link |
If it's a bodybuilder, absolutely.
link |
They're chasing muscle growth,
link |
and they're gonna do so with these types of protocols,
link |
which sees high intensities and high volumes of workload
link |
on a pretty regular basis.
link |
If it's just somebody, a weekend warrior
link |
that wants to keep in shape and look good,
link |
I would say two times a week
link |
for a really challenging workout like that,
link |
and then flex the other types of workouts within the week
link |
to have more of a volume emphasis,
link |
where you reduce the intensity,
link |
and you might just look at larger rep ranges
link |
from 12 to 15 to 20,
link |
another workout where you're looking at reducing the volume,
link |
but increasing the intensity
link |
and really trying to drive a different stimulus
link |
to give you more end points of success.
link |
Great, no, that's really informative.
link |
Along the lines of androgens and intensity,
link |
when I think intensity, I think epinephrine, adrenaline.
link |
And since you have a background
link |
in catecholamines and testosterone,
link |
last time I was here at the USC Performance Institute,
link |
we had a brief conversation
link |
and I want to make sure I got the details right,
link |
that in the short term,
link |
and a big increase in stress hormone
link |
can lead to an increase in testosterone,
link |
like a parachute jump.
link |
But so stress can promote the release of testosterone.
link |
That was news to me.
link |
We always hear about stress suppressing testosterone,
link |
stress suppressing the immune system,
link |
all these terrible things.
link |
But in the short term,
link |
you're saying it can actually increase
link |
the release of testosterone.
link |
So I have that right?
link |
And so then the second question is,
link |
does my cognitive interpretation of the stressor
link |
make a difference?
link |
In other words, if I voluntarily jump out of a plane
link |
does it have a different effect on my testosterone
link |
than if you shove me out of the plane against my will,
link |
or presumably with a parachute too?
link |
I mean, so this was what all my PhD work was looking at,
link |
was the exposure to a stressor and the pre-arousal
link |
of how your body essentially prepares for that stressor,
link |
and then how it manages it
link |
throughout the exposure to the stress.
link |
And it was actually motivated from parachute jumpers.
link |
There was an older study looking at parachute jumpers
link |
And then they were studying the cortisol,
link |
the stress response and the epinephrine response
link |
of these parachute jumpers.
link |
So we got us thinking about, hold on,
link |
there's certain workouts that you do
link |
that are just the daunting.
link |
It's like, okay, it's squat Saturday or whatever it may be.
link |
Oh my gosh, this is going to destroy me.
link |
Or I have to talk to this person I don't want to talk to,
link |
I mean, something, or a PhD dissertation exam or something.
link |
Giving public speaking or whatever it may be.
link |
Now, we used a resistance training protocol
link |
that these athletes knew was going to be
link |
very, very challenging.
link |
that it's going to have some anxiety to doing it.
link |
They knew there were going to be
link |
some physical distress from doing it.
link |
And therefore, their mindset
link |
of how they were going to approach that was already set.
link |
So what we saw prior,
link |
15 minutes prior to the start of an exposure to the workout,
link |
the epinephrine, the neuro adrenaline,
link |
the adrenaline was already starting
link |
to prepare the body sympathetically
link |
to go into what it knew was going to be
link |
a very, very challenging workout.
link |
So that brings you back to exercise preparation,
link |
competition for certain preparation,
link |
preparation for certain competition, excuse me.
link |
Pre-workout routines, the use of music,
link |
all these different things that we know
link |
can now, anecdotally in the gym, we put into place.
link |
But the data that I presented showed that
link |
it was the first of its kind to show that this link
link |
between epinephrine and norepinephrine release
link |
and arousal and then consequent performance.
link |
So force output throughout the workout
link |
was intimately linked.
link |
So what was the takeaway there?
link |
Is it beneficial for people to get a little stressed
link |
about the upcoming impending event,
link |
whether or not it's a lift in the gym
link |
or whether or not it's talking to somebody
link |
that you might be intimidated to talk to or an exam?
link |
Is the stress good for performance or is it harmful?
link |
Yeah, and I think that's a great question.
link |
And I think I can only talk to physical exertion,
link |
which is what we were exploring.
link |
And I don't want to tread on the toes of the psychologist
link |
with flow state and these types of things,
link |
I think you're in the position
link |
of scientific strength on this one.
link |
I think you have the leverage.
link |
I mean, I have a lot of friends in that community,
link |
as I'll just say, as a buffer to the answer
link |
you're about to give,
link |
that there's very little science around flow
link |
and there's very little neuroscience
link |
related to most psychological states anyway.
link |
So I think we've got a lot of degrees of freedom here.
link |
All right, I can breathe easy, thank you for that.
link |
I'll be anything you like, credit Duncan,
link |
anything you dislike, send the mean comments to me.
link |
Yeah, I think from my data,
link |
certainly the greater the arousal,
link |
the higher the performance was
link |
from a physical exertion perspective.
link |
And I think that was the intriguing part
link |
of some of my findings,
link |
where there's definitely an individual biokinetics
link |
to some of these hormonal releases.
link |
And as much as those guys
link |
that had the highest adrenergic response
link |
in terms of epinephrine release, norepinephrine release,
link |
also sustained force output
link |
for a longer period of the workout than those that didn't.
link |
So the individuals that had a lower stimulus
link |
of the sympathetic arousal, let's say,
link |
certainly didn't perform as well throughout the workout.
link |
Now, the intriguing thing then becomes,
link |
is okay, and I think this really segues
link |
into what we're doing here with combat athletes,
link |
with mixed martial artists.
link |
You know, there's a philosophy, there's a paradigm now
link |
for myself in terms of the exposure, repeat exposure.
link |
You know, the more you do that challenging workout,
link |
do you get the same psychological stimulus?
link |
Do you still get the same stress response?
link |
And the assumption is unlikely.
link |
You know, you accommodate,
link |
you become accustomed to the stressor,
link |
your body will therefore adapt,
link |
and that's the classic overload principle, right?
link |
You then need to take the stressor down a different route.
link |
But I think when you look at the athletes
link |
that we work with here,
link |
it's a fist fight at the end of the day.
link |
There's nothing more stressful than that.
link |
But I think just the exposure to the rigors of training,
link |
to understand the bad positions, the bad situations,
link |
to know that they can get out of certain situations,
link |
out of certain submission holds or whatever it may be,
link |
I think that really ties in with some of my PhD work
link |
in terms of what these guys do to approach
link |
what is a really challenging sport
link |
and arena in mixed martial arts.
link |
Yeah, it's definitely the extreme of what's possible
link |
in terms of asking,
link |
does stress favor or hinder performance?
link |
Because yeah, like you said, at the end of the day,
link |
it's someone trying to hurt you as much as they possibly can
link |
within the bounds of the rules,
link |
and you're trying to do the same.
link |
So that's, you know,
link |
I find that your thesis work fascinating.
link |
Where you never to be at the UFC Performance Institute,
link |
luckily they made the right choice and brought you here.
link |
But where you have never to come here,
link |
I was still fascinated by this because over and over,
link |
we hear that stress is bad, stress is bad, stress is bad.
link |
But everything I read from the scientific literature
link |
is that stress and epinephrine in particular
link |
is coupled to the testosterone response
link |
to performance and to adaptation,
link |
provided it doesn't go on too long.
link |
So unless I'm saying something that violates that,
link |
I mean, that's your work.
link |
So it's a really important and beautiful work,
link |
and I refer to it often.
link |
So I'm just glad that we could bolt that down
link |
because I think the people need to know this,
link |
that that discomfort is beneficial.
link |
Now there's another side to this that I want to ask about,
link |
which is the use of cold.
link |
In particular, things like ice baths, cold showers,
link |
or any other type of cold temperature exposure,
link |
in theory, that's stress also, it's epinephrine.
link |
And so how should one think
link |
about the use of cold for recovery?
link |
So if it's stress, if cold causes stress,
link |
then how is cold used for recovery?
link |
That's what I don't understand.
link |
And maybe you just want to share your thoughts on that.
link |
Yeah, no, and I think it's a great question.
link |
And I think the jury is still out there, certainly,
link |
knowing some of the conversations that we've been having.
link |
But I think when we talk about stress,
link |
it's your classic fight, flight, or freeze approach.
link |
And throwing your body into a cold tub,
link |
an ice bath or whatever it may be,
link |
certainly is going to have a physiological stress response.
link |
Now, people are using that for different end goals.
link |
And again, I think that's where the narrative
link |
has to be explained.
link |
If you are using that stress specifically
link |
to manage the mindset,
link |
to use it as a specific stress stimulus,
link |
that's the same as me doing six by 10, 80%.
link |
You're just trying to find something to disrupt the system
link |
to do something that's very, if you want a better term,
link |
painful, discomfort, whatever.
link |
You're just finding a stressor
link |
and then being able to manage the mindset.
link |
But if you're using cold,
link |
specifically from a physiological perspective,
link |
to promote redistribution of vascular,
link |
of blood's flow to different vascular areas of muscle
link |
that you feel have gone through a workout,
link |
that are damaged or whatever it may be,
link |
I think we've got to understand
link |
what that stress mechanism is.
link |
And the data, the literature,
link |
is certainly still out there
link |
with respect to cryotherapy and cold baths
link |
and some of these high, these cold exposures
link |
in terms of what they do at the level of the muscle tissue.
link |
If that's the target,
link |
if you're trying to promote a flushing mechanism
link |
or you're trying to promote redistribution
link |
of the blood flow,
link |
what you've got to understand is that cold
link |
is gonna clamp down every part of the vascular system
link |
and we've really got to understand
link |
how the muscle would be redistributed
link |
to areas of interest.
link |
So, I think the stress response is a real thing
link |
with respect to cold exposure.
link |
But I think the narrative around
link |
what are you using the cold for
link |
has to precede the conversation.
link |
Because yes, it's like putting your hand over a hot cold.
link |
That's a stress the same way as jumping in a cold bath is.
link |
I think most people don't realize that.
link |
You're gonna get the epinephrine release
link |
from holding your hand too close to the flame
link |
and you're gonna get it from getting in the ice bath.
link |
Your body doesn't know the difference, right?
link |
Your body does not know the difference.
link |
It has a primordial kind of physiological response
link |
that it's created over millions and millions of years.
link |
And I think that physiology is not changing
link |
and it's fixed in a particular way right now
link |
that it doesn't understand the difference
link |
between whether it's six by 10
link |
doing a challenging workout over here,
link |
whether it's putting my hands on the hot cold,
link |
whether it's a lion stood in front of me or whatever.
link |
That epinephrine response from the level of the brain
link |
down to the whole signaling cascade is the same.
link |
And cold I've heard can actually prevent
link |
some of the beneficial effects of training
link |
that it can actually get in the way
link |
of muscle growth, et cetera.
link |
Yeah, there's some pretty robust data out there now
link |
showing that it definitely has an influence
link |
on performance variables like strength and power
link |
in particular, but absolutely
link |
in terms of muscle hypertrophy.
link |
And there's a big kind of theme
link |
in the world of athletic performance right now
link |
in terms of periodization of cold exposure
link |
as a recovery modality.
link |
When do you use cold?
link |
Should you be using cold for recovery
link |
in periods of high training load
link |
when you're actually pursuing
link |
maybe general proprietary work
link |
where you're actually trying to pursue muscle growth?
link |
Well, that's usually where you get the most sore.
link |
It's usually where you feel the most fatigued,
link |
but it's probably not the most beneficial approach
link |
to use an ice bath in that scenario
link |
because you're dampening, you're dulling
link |
the mTOR pathway and the hypertrophic signaling pathway.
link |
Whereas in a competition phase
link |
where actually quality of exercise
link |
and quality of execution of skill and technical work
link |
has to be maintained,
link |
you want to throw the kitchen sink of recovery capabilities
link |
and recovery interventions in that scenario
link |
because you now, the muscle building activity
link |
should be in the bank.
link |
That should have been done in the general preparatory work.
link |
And now you're focusing on technical execution.
link |
So you're absolutely right.
link |
No, it's interesting.
link |
So if I understand correctly,
link |
if I want to maximize muscle growth or power
link |
or improvements and adaptations,
link |
then the inflammation response,
link |
the delayed onset muscle soreness,
link |
all this stuff that's uncomfortable
link |
and that we hear is so terrible
link |
is actually the stimulus for adaptation.
link |
And so using cold in that situation
link |
might short circuit my progress.
link |
But if I'm, you know, I don't know that I'll ever do this,
link |
but if I were to do an Ironman or something
link |
or run a marathon under those conditions,
link |
I'm basically coming to the race, so to speak,
link |
with all the power and strength I'm going to have.
link |
And so there, reducing inflammation is good
link |
because it's going to allow me
link |
to perform more work, essentially.
link |
Yeah, you have to be strategic
link |
about when you use some of these interventions.
link |
And, you know, the time when you're preparing
link |
for a competition is not the appropriate time, excuse me,
link |
is the appropriate time when you want to drive recovery
link |
and make sure that your body is optimized.
link |
You know, when you're far away from a competition,
link |
you know, date or, you know, out of season
link |
or whatever it may be,
link |
and you're really trying to just tear up the body
link |
a little bit to allow it to, it's natural, you know,
link |
healing and adaptation processes to take place.
link |
Well, you don't want to negate that.
link |
You know, you want the body to optimize
link |
its internal recovery,
link |
and that's how muscle growth is going to happen, so.
link |
There's a time kind of consideration
link |
that you need to make with these interventions, for sure.
link |
At the UFC Performance Center,
link |
are the fighters periodizing their cold exposure
link |
or are they just doing cold at will?
link |
Well, it's not just the UFC.
link |
And again, I talk about my personal experiences
link |
with different sports.
link |
I think just education around where science is at,
link |
and our understanding of concepts
link |
like the use of cold exposure for recovery, ice bath.
link |
You know, everyone wants to jump in an ice bath.
link |
But I think as we've stepped back
link |
and scientists have started to say,
link |
have started to figure out and look at some of the data,
link |
you know, we're now more intuitive about,
link |
well, actually that might not be the best
link |
or the most optimal approach.
link |
And I think that's any given sport.
link |
So yes, certainly here at the UFC,
link |
we're trying to educate our athletes
link |
around, you know, appropriate timing.
link |
And it's the same with nutrition.
link |
It's the same with an ice bath intervention.
link |
It's the same with lifting weights.
link |
It's the same with going for a run
link |
or working out on the bike.
link |
You know, there's tactics to when you do things
link |
and when you don't do things.
link |
And I think, you know, stress and cold exposure,
link |
we have to have a consideration around that as well.
link |
But it's not just, you know, MMA fighters.
link |
That's any athlete.
link |
And I think it's the best professionals,
link |
the most successful professionals do that really well.
link |
They listen, number one.
link |
They educate themselves and then they build structure.
link |
And I think, you know, at the most elite level,
link |
we always talk about it here at the UFC,
link |
but the most elite level,
link |
you're not necessarily training harder than anybody else.
link |
Everybody in the UFC trains hard.
link |
Like everyone is training super hard.
link |
But the best athletes, the true elite levels
link |
are the ones that can do it again and again and again
link |
on a daily basis and sustain a technical output
link |
for skill development.
link |
Therefore their skills can improve
link |
or physical development,
link |
their physical attributes can improve.
link |
So that ability to reproduce on a day-to-day basis
link |
falls into a recovery conversation.
link |
Now, when is the right time to use
link |
something like an ice bath and when isn't
link |
is part of the high-performance conversation for sure.
link |
So really they're scientists.
link |
They're building structure.
link |
They're figuring out variables.
link |
But it sounds like the ability to do more quality work
link |
over time is one of the key variables.
link |
I mean, it's fundamental.
link |
I mean, garbage in, garbage out, quality in, quality out.
link |
But in our sport, I talk about mixed martial arts,
link |
it's truly a decathlon of combat.
link |
So there's so many different attributes,
link |
whether it's a grappling, whether it's a wrestling,
link |
whether it's a transition work,
link |
whether it's a standup striking.
link |
So the different facets of a training program in this sport
link |
are significantly large compared to something like
link |
a wide receiver in football.
link |
And that's no disrespect for wide receivers,
link |
but they run routes.
link |
They're gonna run a route, a passing tree,
link |
and that's all they need to do.
link |
These guys have to be on the ground.
link |
They gotta be great on the ground.
link |
They gotta be great standing up.
link |
They gotta be great with the back against the fence.
link |
There's so many different kind of facets to our sport.
link |
So managing the distribution of all the training components
link |
is one of the biggest challenges of mixed martial arts.
link |
And the best guys get that right.
link |
They allow their body to optimize the training.
link |
And remember, why are we doing training?
link |
We're doing training for technical and tactical improvement.
link |
Now, if your body is fatigued
link |
or you just can't expose yourself
link |
to more tactical development or technical development,
link |
then you're essentially doing yourself a disservice.
link |
You're gonna be behind the curve
link |
with respect to those guys
link |
that can reproduce that day in, day out.
link |
On the topic of skill development, regardless of sport,
link |
we hear all the time,
link |
and it certainly is intuitive to me,
link |
that the person who can focus the best
link |
will progress the fastest.
link |
But it's kind of interesting.
link |
Sometimes I talk to athletes
link |
and they seem a little bit laid back
link |
about their training sometimes,
link |
and yet they obviously know how to flip the switch
link |
and they can really dial in the intensity.
link |
Do you think that there are optimal protocols
link |
for skill learning in terms of physical skill learning?
link |
Like, could it ever be parameterized
link |
like the six sets of 10 reps?
link |
And this gets to the heart of neuroplasticity,
link |
which is still, it's not a black box,
link |
but it's kind of a black box
link |
with portions of it illuminated, I like to say.
link |
But what are your thoughts on skill development?
link |
Is there, for somebody that wants to get better at sport,
link |
do you recommend a particularly long
link |
or short training session?
link |
It does intensity matter, or is it just reps?
link |
Yeah, I think, no, it's not a volume-driven exercise.
link |
It's a quality-driven exercise.
link |
And listen, my expertise is not in motor learning
link |
and motor skill acquisition.
link |
I tend to default to Dr. Gabrielle Wolf
link |
here at UNLV for that.
link |
She's one of the leading proponents in this area.
link |
But if you look at true skill development,
link |
it is about rehearsal of accurate movement,
link |
accurate movement mechanics.
link |
And as soon as that becomes impacted by fatigue
link |
or inaccurate movement,
link |
you're now losing the motor learning.
link |
You're losing the accuracy of the skill
link |
that people can call it muscle memory
link |
or whatever they want, right?
link |
But essentially, you're grooving neural axons
link |
to create movement patterns,
link |
and they're situational throughout sport, right?
link |
Whether it's a cruyff turn in soccer
link |
or a jump shot in basketball or a forehand down the line,
link |
you can carve out that particular posture
link |
and position and skill, and you can isolate it,
link |
and you can drill it again and again and again.
link |
Now, as soon as fatigue is influencing that repetition,
link |
it's time to stop.
link |
And the best coaches understand that.
link |
They understand that it's quality over quantity
link |
when it comes to skill acquisition.
link |
So to answer your question in a roundabout way,
link |
I would say, yes, it's shorter sessions
link |
that are very high quality.
link |
And I think the best athletes, in my experience,
link |
are the ones that consciously and cognitively
link |
are aware of it at every moment of the training session.
link |
They should leave the training session
link |
not necessarily just physically fatigued,
link |
but mentally fatigued because they're completely engaged
link |
in the learning process.
link |
The problem then becomes, okay,
link |
if we just do lots of 30-minute sessions,
link |
we've gotta do a lot of 30-minute sessions
link |
to get the volume exposure of the repetition
link |
and the rehearsal of the skill again and again and again.
link |
So it's a bit of a paradox.
link |
It's a bit of a double-edged sword.
link |
But a three-hour session versus a 90-minute session,
link |
we'll take the 90-minute session any day
link |
when it comes to skill acquisition
link |
because that's going to be driven by quality over quantity.
link |
Yeah, training and skill learning
link |
is incredibly mentally fatiguing.
link |
I've often wondered why when one works out hard,
link |
whether or not it's with a run or with the weights,
link |
why it's hard to think later in the day.
link |
Yeah, there really does seem to be something to it.
link |
And I've wondered, is it depletion of adrenaline, dopamine?
link |
I sometimes think it might be dopamine.
link |
And here I'm totally speculating.
link |
I don't have any data to support this.
link |
But if you hit a really hard workout or run early in the day
link |
oftentimes the brain just doesn't want
link |
to do hard mental work,
link |
which gives me great admiration for these athletes
link |
that are drilling their mind and body all day, every day
link |
But so what are your thoughts?
link |
What leads to the mental fatigue after physical performance?
link |
Well, again, I don't want to talk out,
link |
you know, I'm talking to the man here, you know, this-
link |
Well, we're just two scientists speculating on this point.
link |
Up until now, you've been giving us concrete
link |
peer-reviewed study-based feedback on my questions.
link |
But if we were to speculate,
link |
I mean, I think this is a common occurrence.
link |
People think if I get that really good workout
link |
in in the morning, I feel better all day.
link |
That's true, unless that workout is really intense
link |
And then you just, the mind just somehow
link |
won't latch on to mental work quite as well.
link |
I mean, just philosophically, you know,
link |
I think there's a coming back to this kind
link |
of stress consideration, you know,
link |
like a public speaking or taking an exam.
link |
I mean, if you have an amazing coach
link |
who is setting up training in a particular way,
link |
There's a strain related to it.
link |
And I'm not talking physical strain.
link |
I'm talking figuring things out, you know,
link |
figuring out the skill, and I think that can be stressful.
link |
Like the learning process can be stressful.
link |
So, you know, we've touched on stress.
link |
I also think if they hit the right technique,
link |
you know, that reward center in the brain,
link |
that dopamine shot is gonna fly up there.
link |
And there's only so many times that we can get that
link |
before that becomes dampened.
link |
And I think there's an energetic piece to it.
link |
You know, there's the fueling of the brain.
link |
There's the carbohydrate fueling exercise
link |
that actually the strategy around how you fuel for learning
link |
and fuel for physical training is actually pretty similar.
link |
Yeah, it's glucose, it's sugar at the end of the day, right?
link |
So, you know, are you fueling accordingly
link |
around your training sessions?
link |
Be that very physical, because everyone thinks,
link |
okay, you know, I'm gonna jump on a treadmill
link |
and I'm gonna bang out, you know, 15 sprints at max effort,
link |
and I'm gonna be dropping off and lying on the floor
link |
at the end of it, I need to refuel.
link |
But what about the refueling of the brain
link |
in a very demanding exercise or drilling session
link |
where you're looking at technique
link |
that you're trying to figure out
link |
that's very challenging for your mind
link |
to figure out the complexity of it,
link |
but still needs to be fueled or refueled afterwards.
link |
And I think that's obviously, you know,
link |
might be an area where athletes do themselves a disservice
link |
by not appropriately fueling
link |
from what might be considered to be
link |
a lower intensity session,
link |
but the cognitive challenge has been significantly high.
link |
So they're doing skill work or drill work
link |
and it's taxing the brain.
link |
And they're thinking, oh, you know,
link |
I wasn't, you know, pushing hard lifts or doing sprints,
link |
and so I can just go off the rest of my day,
link |
but then their mind is drifting.
link |
Yeah, I mean, I speculate.
link |
Yeah, that seems very reasonable.
link |
I mean, I know that here
link |
and presumably with the other athletes you've worked with,
link |
nutrition is a huge aspect of that.
link |
And I think the general public can learn a lot
link |
from athletic nutrition because at the end of the day,
link |
the general public is trying to attend to their kids,
link |
attend to their work, whether or not they're lawyers
link |
or whatever, they need to focus.
link |
Nutrition is a barbed wire topic.
link |
But since we're free to do what we would do
link |
if we were just sitting in each other's offices,
link |
which is to just speculate a bit,
link |
for the typical person, right,
link |
do you think these low carbohydrate diets,
link |
typical person who exercises, runs, swims, yoga,
link |
lifts weights, maybe not all those things,
link |
but some collection of those,
link |
pushes themselves to do those things and to do them well,
link |
but isn't necessarily a highly competitive athlete?
link |
Do you think that nutrition
link |
that doesn't include a lot of glucose,
link |
doesn't include a lot of carbohydrates is a problem?
link |
What do you recommend for athletes?
link |
What do you recommend for typical people?
link |
Yeah, again, disclaimer, I'm not a dietician, but I-
link |
That's okay, the dieticians don't know
link |
what to recommend to athletes either.
link |
And I say that from having to spend a lot of time
link |
with the literature now, it's a complete mess.
link |
It's like, I thought we didn't understand anything
link |
about the brain, the nutrition science stuff
link |
is all over the place.
link |
So I think we have, again, a large degrees of freedom.
link |
Right, right, right.
link |
I mean, I think it comes down to metabolic efficiency.
link |
So we would never advocate a high, I never say never, okay?
link |
But we rarely advocate a high-performance athlete
link |
in a high-intensity intermittent sport like MMA,
link |
being totally ketogenic or being-
link |
You do not recommend that?
link |
No, because at the end of the day,
link |
some of those high-intensity efforts
link |
usually require carbohydrate fueling
link |
for the energy produced at those high intensities.
link |
So we try to navigate around that.
link |
Now, listen, there are fighters in the UFC and elsewhere.
link |
Matt Brown is a great example
link |
who promotes the ketogenic approach and it works for him.
link |
But we look at the science and the nature,
link |
the characteristics of our sport
link |
and we don't necessarily promote that.
link |
Can I interrupt you real quick?
link |
What about ketones for people
link |
that are ingesting carbohydrates?
link |
This is an interesting area
link |
because people always hear ketones and they think,
link |
oh, I have to be ketogenic to benefit from taking ketones.
link |
But there are a number of athletes
link |
and recreational athletes now as well,
link |
taking liquid or powder-based ketones
link |
even though they do eat rice and oatmeal
link |
and bread and other things.
link |
So are there any known benefits of ketones
link |
even if one is not in a state of ketosis?
link |
So the use of ketones I'm primarily aware of in our sport
link |
is after the event in terms of the brain health
link |
with athletes potentially taking trauma to the brain, et cetera
link |
and looking to maintain the fueling
link |
and the energy supply to the brain.
link |
But yes, it's probably a little bit out of my remit
link |
so I don't wanna talk on that
link |
because I'm not fully familiar with that.
link |
Well, I've heard that ketones after head injury
link |
can provide a buffering component.
link |
It's not gonna reverse brain damage
link |
but it might be able to offset some of the micro damage.
link |
Right, so that's how we use it just to sustain
link |
the energy supply to the brain
link |
that might be compromised through brain trauma.
link |
So that's why we use ketones.
link |
To come back to the original question,
link |
if it's a general population, then yes,
link |
I think there's a place to argue
link |
that actually being on a ketogenic diet at times
link |
and maybe it's a cycling exercise,
link |
maybe not, I don't mean cycling a bike,
link |
I mean cycling ketosis is beneficial
link |
because I think it's gonna lead
link |
to better metabolic management and metabolic efficiency.
link |
Those lower intensities where we should be fueling
link |
our metabolism with lipids and fats,
link |
clearly the Western diet and the modern day diets
link |
is heavily driven by processed foods and carbohydrates
link |
that people become predisposed to utilization
link |
of that fuel source above lipids use, fat use,
link |
intensities that are very low.
link |
So some of our data with the fighters shows that as well.
link |
But I think the challenge for us is that we're working
link |
with a clientele that require high intensity bouts of effort
link |
so fueling appropriately is very important for that.
link |
Now we use tactics here where we essentially have athletes
link |
on what you would say kind of is it a largely ketogenic diet
link |
but then we will fuel carbohydrates around training sessions.
link |
So we'll do very timed exposure to carbohydrates.
link |
Post training, immediately pre, during
link |
and then immediately post.
link |
And then the rest of their diets,
link |
breakfast, lunch and dinner are what would look
link |
like ketogenic type approaches.
link |
So we're trying to be very tactical in the exposure
link |
to maximize the intensity for the training
link |
and then return to a metabolically efficient diet
link |
which is heavily reduced in carbohydrate
link |
because we've fueled the sessions that need it.
link |
I'm smiling because once again, this place,
link |
the UFC Performance Center is doing things scientifically
link |
which to me, the idea, and I'm pleased to hear that
link |
because to me, this idea that the ketogenic diet
link |
is the best and only diet or carbohydrates
link |
and low protein diets are the best diet, it's ludicrous.
link |
But then you mentioned metabolic efficiency.
link |
I think some people might be familiar with that term,
link |
some perhaps not, but the way I understand
link |
metabolic efficiency is that you teach the body
link |
to use fats by maybe doing long bouts of cardio,
link |
maybe lowering carbohydrates a bit.
link |
So teaching the body to tap into its fat stores
link |
for certain periods of training.
link |
And then you also teach the body to utilize carbohydrates
link |
by supplying carbohydrates immediately after training
link |
and before training, you teach the body to use ketones
link |
and then you use them at the appropriate time
link |
as opposed to just deciding that one of these fuel sources
link |
is good and all the others are bad or dispensable.
link |
Do I have that correct?
link |
I mean, from Bob Seabahar, formerly of USA Triathlon,
link |
is the guy that kind of came up
link |
with the concept of metabolic efficiency.
link |
But yes, you're absolutely right.
link |
I mean, at low intensities of exercise
link |
or just day-to-day living, we shouldn't be tapping
link |
into our carbohydrate fuel sources extensively.
link |
That's for higher intensity work
link |
or the fight or flight needs of stress.
link |
If athletes or any individual has a high carbohydrate diet,
link |
they're gonna start to become predisposed
link |
to utilizing that fuel source preferentially.
link |
Now at low intensity, that can be problematic,
link |
certainly for an athlete,
link |
because if they preferentially use carbohydrate
link |
at lower intensities, when the exercise demand
link |
goes to a higher intensity,
link |
they've already exhausted their fuel stores.
link |
They can't draw upon fat
link |
because the oxidization of that fat is just too slow.
link |
So they're essentially now become fatigued
link |
because they've already utilized the carbohydrate stores.
link |
So what we try to do, yes, through diet manipulation
link |
and a little bit of exercise manipulation is, as you say,
link |
teach the body or train the body
link |
to preferentially use a specific fuel source.
link |
Fat, obviously, at lower intensities
link |
and carbohydrate at high intensities.
link |
And we look at specifically the crossover point
link |
between the two tells a lot
link |
in terms of how an athlete is ultimately,
link |
how their metabolism is working.
link |
Well, again, I'm smiling because I love this
link |
because it's grounded in something real and scientific,
link |
which is that we have these different fuel sources.
link |
The body can adapt to use any number of them
link |
I think most people are looking for that one pattern
link |
of eating, that one pattern of exercising
link |
that's gonna be best for them or sustain them.
link |
And they often look back to the time
link |
when they felt so much better
link |
switching from one thing to the next.
link |
But the adaptation process itself is also key, right?
link |
Teaching the body.
link |
So if we were to just riff on this just a little bit further
link |
if somebody, I'll use myself as an example
link |
since I can only speculate
link |
what other people's current nutrition protocols are.
link |
But if somebody is eating in a particular way
link |
and they want to try this kind of periodization
link |
of nutrition, could one say, okay, for a few weeks
link |
I'm going to do more high intensity interval training
link |
and weight training,
link |
and I'm going to eat a bit more carbohydrate
link |
because I'm depleting more glycogen.
link |
Then if I switch to a phase of my training
link |
where I'm doing some longer runs,
link |
maybe I'm training less,
link |
maybe I'm just working at my desk a little bit more,
link |
then I might switch to a lower carbohydrate diet.
link |
Do I have that right?
link |
And then if I'm going to enter a competition of some sort,
link |
certainly not UFC or MMA of any kind to be clear,
link |
not because it isn't a wonderful sport,
link |
but because that wouldn't be good for my other profession.
link |
But if I were going to do that,
link |
then I would think about stacking carbohydrates,
link |
ketones, and fats.
link |
Do I have that more or less right?
link |
I think, yeah, you said it eloquently.
link |
At the end of the day,
link |
you're consciously understanding
link |
what the exposure to physical exertion is,
link |
and you're flexing your diet accordingly.
link |
So it's need-based eating.
link |
Exactly, and for one of the better terms,
link |
you can call it whatever fancy terminology
link |
there is out there,
link |
but yes, it's needs-based eating,
link |
but you're very conscious and cognizant
link |
of what is my current exercise status.
link |
If I'm taking some time off,
link |
then don't gorge on the carbohydrates.
link |
We probably need to be cut.
link |
It's going to be lower intensity work
link |
or even just habitual day-to-day walking around,
link |
doing your groceries.
link |
That doesn't require massive amounts of glycogen storage
link |
and carbohydrate fueling.
link |
So you can potentially go more ketogenic in nature,
link |
oxidizing lipids for that fuel.
link |
If you are in a high period of high-intensity training,
link |
then you have to consciously flex your diet to support that.
link |
That's not normal.
link |
You've made a change.
link |
You've elevated the demand.
link |
So the fueling requirements for the regenerative,
link |
not only fueling the exercise,
link |
but the regenerative requirements of your body
link |
after that type of work
link |
is going to be really important as well.
link |
So yes, take on more carbohydrates.
link |
So I think it's consciously interpreting
link |
the nature of your diet against what,
link |
where you are at any moment in time.
link |
Yeah, I like that.
link |
I think the listeners of my podcast
link |
generally are experimenters.
link |
They are scientists of themselves,
link |
which makes me happy, obviously.
link |
And I like to think that they're paying attention
link |
to the changes they're making
link |
and how they're affecting themselves.
link |
And they seem more open to trying things,
link |
provided they can do it safely, you know,
link |
and seeing what works for them.
link |
And I'm certainly going to try some of the change up.
link |
I also am really a creature of habit.
link |
And I think the, talking to you today,
link |
I realize I'm probably doing a number of things
link |
truly wrong in my training,
link |
but also that I don't tend to vary my nutrition
link |
with my training quite as much as I should.
link |
I'm just locked into a protocol.
link |
We covered a number of things
link |
related to your PhD thesis work.
link |
And then, but I cut you off early on
link |
related to your trajectory.
link |
After you finished your thesis,
link |
I know you were at Notre Dame for a while.
link |
Was that your first spot after your PhD thesis?
link |
No, no, I basically finished my PhD
link |
and I dropped into the British Olympic system
link |
for about 14 years.
link |
I was with, you know,
link |
I've done three full Olympic cycles with different sports
link |
and largely a strength and conditioning coach
link |
as a practitioner.
link |
I was always working in universities and academia alongside,
link |
you know, in terms of continuing to publish and write
link |
and do research and teach as well,
link |
because I enjoy teaching. That explains
link |
the huge volume of publications.
link |
I don't think people realize the work
link |
that goes into getting a quality peer-reviewed publication.
link |
It's not, what do they call it now on Instagram?
link |
Anecdata, where people would do something,
link |
want, you know, they have this experience
link |
and then they put it in the world that...
link |
Anecdata are, I don't even know that
link |
we should call it data,
link |
but so 14 years working with the British Olympic team?
link |
Yeah, so with, you know,
link |
whether it was GB boxing,
link |
primarily with the Rio, excuse me, the Beijing cycle,
link |
but also lightweight rowers and gymnastics.
link |
And for the London Olympic games,
link |
that cycle I was the lead strength and conditioning
link |
and physical performance coach for British basketball,
link |
I had about three years in the English Premier League
link |
with Newcastle United and the soccer team.
link |
And then for the Rio Olympic cycle,
link |
I was with Great Britain Taekwondo.
link |
So again, another combat sport.
link |
After I'd finished there,
link |
I kind of moved to the University of Notre Dame
link |
where I went into more of a managerial position
link |
working across all the different technical services,
link |
medical, nutrition, strength and conditioning,
link |
you know, psychology, whatever, sports science,
link |
whatever it may be,
link |
as the director of performance sciences
link |
for Notre Dame athletics.
link |
And then after about 16 months there,
link |
the UFC came knocking
link |
and they recruited me out of Notre Dame.
link |
So it's been a great ride.
link |
And lots of, you know, I've got, you know,
link |
lots of athletes have taught me a lot along the way,
link |
lots of coaches, you know, every day is a school day.
link |
I still try and keep that mentality.
link |
And, you know, in this world,
link |
we call it white belt mentality.
link |
You know, it's, you know, I'm a PhD.
link |
I've got 25 years of experience in high performance sport,
link |
but I still learn every single day
link |
from these people out on the mats and in the ring.
link |
And it's impressive to see what they do.
link |
Yeah, it certainly is.
link |
I got introduced to MMA just a few years ago.
link |
I think the first time I came out here
link |
was one of the first times I'd heard of MMA
link |
because I was kind of in my laboratory and, you know,
link |
And it's a really interesting sport
link |
because it incorporates so many different types of movement
link |
as you said, you know, it's not just stand-up boxing,
link |
it's just kicking, it's, you know, ground game, everything.
link |
And I'm still learning about it.
link |
But as you mentioned, going in with that beginner's mind,
link |
the white belt mentality,
link |
what has been the most surprising thing for you
link |
in terms of being exposed to MMA in particular,
link |
as opposed to other sports?
link |
Like what's unique about MMA fighters
link |
besides that they have this huge variety
link |
of tactical skills that they have to learn and perfect?
link |
Yeah, that's a great question.
link |
I would say two things.
link |
I'm going to answer two questions.
link |
One actually reiterates what you've already said.
link |
Like the degrees of freedom in mixed martial arts
link |
are exponential, like no other sports, you know.
link |
We've got 11 different weight classes.
link |
We have men's classes, we have women's classes,
link |
we have, you know, kickboxers, wrestlers,
link |
jiu-jitsu fighters, judokas, you know,
link |
like karate fighters, you know,
link |
the stylistic backgrounds are infinite.
link |
And we have, we're a weight classification sport.
link |
There's a whole issue relating to making weight
link |
and then rebounding to fight about 24 to 30 hours.
link |
Like just the variability in this sport,
link |
the considerations that you have to make are unprecedented
link |
compared to any other sport that I've worked with.
link |
And a lot of them go against and are the antithesis
link |
of what you would expect for a high performance.
link |
You know, in terms of we don't always have
link |
a very clearly defined competition schedule.
link |
You know, once these guys fight,
link |
they don't necessarily know
link |
when their next fight's going to be.
link |
What's the closest spacing of a fight?
link |
I mean, listen, I think the record is around,
link |
it's just over a month, I believe.
link |
So, you know, that's a quick turnaround,
link |
but most of these guys are fighting, you know,
link |
three or four times a year,
link |
three times a year is pretty normal.
link |
The bigger fights, maybe two times a year.
link |
But invariably the guys don't know
link |
when that next date is going to be.
link |
So we're in this gray area of, okay, what do we do?
link |
Like, are we taking some time off?
link |
Are we just going to do some general prep work?
link |
Are we going to try and keep the knife sharpened
link |
I didn't realize this,
link |
in that way it's a lot like special operations.
link |
You don't know when the call's going to happen.
link |
They have to be ready at all times.
link |
There isn't this like, let's get ready for season.
link |
Yeah, like when I was with the British Olympic Association,
link |
you know, I knew it was the British Open,
link |
the Spanish Open, the French Open,
link |
the European Championships, the Israeli Open,
link |
the American Open, the Canadian Open, the Olympic Games.
link |
You know, I could-
link |
It's a circuit in your brain.
link |
You just plan like, you know,
link |
where all the targets are going to be.
link |
Here, it's a moving target
link |
because you might be just hanging out
link |
doing some general prep work
link |
and then you might get a short notice fight
link |
that give you a quick call
link |
and it's in six weeks or five weeks.
link |
And okay, I've got to ramp everything up really quickly.
link |
So that's a real challenge
link |
in terms of just managing all these different components
link |
of mixed martial arts alone.
link |
To come back to your question,
link |
the other thing which is truly fascinating
link |
about these individuals
link |
is their, just their mental resilience.
link |
And again, we've touched on it in the talk,
link |
but you know, the ability to do what they do
link |
to look at all the different skillsets
link |
that they have to try and engage in
link |
and bring into their training,
link |
to do that and embrace the grind,
link |
embrace the process of just learning.
link |
The physical side of our sport is unprecedented,
link |
but the mental side, you know,
link |
we have a funny saying here,
link |
I always say it's 90% mental apart from the 60%
link |
So, you know, it's just more and more and more.
link |
And these guys' ability to just do that on a daily basis
link |
is very impressive.
link |
Like their resilience,
link |
their internal drive and their resilience
link |
is really impressive to see.
link |
Yeah, all the fighters I've met here
link |
have been really terrific.
link |
Every time I meet a fighter,
link |
how often I shouldn't be surprising
link |
where they're often very soft-spoken.
link |
Always extremely polite.
link |
And fighting is such a, you know,
link |
it comes from a very primitive portion of the brain, right?
link |
But a large portion of the brain nonetheless.
link |
But I think that's another skill is that switch, you know?
link |
And again, that's the recoverability piece, right?
link |
Like you cannot be type A
link |
or you cannot be like supercharged 24 hours a day
link |
because you're going to just fry your system, right?
link |
And I think that's something else
link |
where we're really trying to manage this whole process,
link |
be it through nutritional interventions,
link |
be it through education around sleep,
link |
be it through training program management,
link |
be it through psychological interventions.
link |
You know, you could look at fights and say,
link |
like, these guys are gone.
link |
Like they're red alert and they'll run through a brick wall.
link |
But actually, again, their ability to turn it on and off
link |
means that they can do what they do.
link |
You know, they can bring it down and be very normal,
link |
very polite, very accommodating.
link |
Maybe even better than most people
link |
because, you know, one of the reasons I'm obsessed
link |
with human performance and high performance
link |
and people like fighters and, you know, elite military
link |
or even bodybuilders for that matter
link |
is that they experiment.
link |
They find the outer limits of what's possible.
link |
But one of the things that they have discovered
link |
as you're describing is this ability to toggle
link |
between high alert states and calm states.
link |
Most typical people can't do this.
link |
They see something that upsets them on the internet
link |
or something on the news
link |
or some external event pressures down on them
link |
and they're stressed for many, many days and weeks.
link |
And sometimes it goes pathological, right?
link |
And I don't say this as a criticism.
link |
It's just that most human beings within our species,
link |
most members of our species never learn
link |
to either flip the switch
link |
or to just voluntarily toggle between states.
link |
I think athletes learn how to do that extremely well.
link |
And it sounds like MMA fighters do that even better
link |
than perhaps many other athletes.
link |
I mean, yeah, there's the odd one or two
link |
that we'd struggle with.
link |
But I think in terms of that chronic exposure,
link |
we see that coming from challenges
link |
around cyclical weight cutting
link |
and metabolic disruption and metabolic injury,
link |
not necessarily from the psychological drive.
link |
They do understand that this is a job for them
link |
and the time on the mats.
link |
Most of them can turn it off a little bit
link |
and downgrade things when they're off the mats.
link |
It's impressive to see.
link |
Because again, like as a layman,
link |
just looking at the fight game, you think,
link |
it's going to be crazy chaotic, 100 miles an hour,
link |
every hour of every day.
link |
But that's clearly not the case.
link |
They manage their energy and their efforts pretty well.
link |
So it's a little bit like science,
link |
although maybe scientists could take a lesson from it.
link |
Yeah, it's evidence-based practice
link |
or practice-based evidence, right?
link |
I like that, that's good.
link |
A couple more questions.
link |
I can't help myself.
link |
I know we talked about temperature earlier
link |
when we discussed cold,
link |
but I can't help myself.
link |
I have to ask you about heat.
link |
Because earlier we were having a conversation
link |
about heat adaptation,
link |
about how long does it take for the human body or athlete
link |
or typical person that's maybe exploring sauna
link |
or things of that sort to learn to be a better sweater.
link |
It sounds like something none of us would want to do.
link |
We all want to stay cool, calm, and collected.
link |
But one of the reasons to deliberately expose oneself
link |
to heat is for things like growth hormone release, et cetera.
link |
We can talk about this.
link |
But a couple of questions.
link |
One, is heat exposure stress
link |
in the same way that the ice bath
link |
or cold exposure is stress?
link |
The second one, is there any difference there
link |
And the other one is,
link |
how does one get better at heat adaptation?
link |
Or at least what are you doing with the fighters
link |
to get them better at dealing with heat?
link |
How long does that take?
link |
So the first question,
link |
just because I threw three questions at you,
link |
is, was, you know, is heat stress like cold is stress?
link |
Yeah, I think it is.
link |
And I think, you know, heat shock proteins, for example,
link |
are driven by that stressful exposure
link |
to a changing environment.
link |
So I think, you know,
link |
we do graded response in terms of heat acclimation
link |
strategies, but yes,
link |
we've touched on it earlier in the conversation.
link |
For me, heat is still a stressor.
link |
And if it's managed incorrectly,
link |
you can have detrimental responses
link |
rather than beneficial responses.
link |
So barring like hyperthermia and death,
link |
like, I mean, obviously you heat up the brain too much,
link |
people will have seizures and die,
link |
but you lose neurons.
link |
But what's the right way to acclimate heat?
link |
Taking into account that people are, you know,
link |
should check with their doctor, et cetera,
link |
we do all these disclaimers.
link |
But, you know, but let's say I,
link |
let's just say I want to get better at dealing with heat
link |
or I want to extract more benefit from heat.
link |
Is, I mean, how many minutes a day
link |
are people typically exposing themselves to heat?
link |
How often and over what periods of time?
link |
Yeah, so we normally start
link |
with about 15 minutes of exposure.
link |
Now, if someone's really lacking acclimation to heat,
link |
you know, you can do that in three, five minute efforts.
link |
Do you know what I mean?
link |
And actually take time-
link |
This is hot, hot sauna.
link |
Take time to step-
link |
200 degrees or something like Fahrenheit.
link |
Yeah, yeah, 200 Fahrenheit, yes.
link |
And we try to work up to 30 to 40 minutes
link |
to 45 minutes in the sauna continuous.
link |
Now we have to understand, you know,
link |
what's the advantage of heat acclimation for our athletes?
link |
Ultimately, their ability to sweat
link |
and to lose, you know, body fluids
link |
is going to be advantageous to their weight cut process,
link |
their ability to make weight.
link |
It is a technique that these guys,
link |
some of these guys adopt.
link |
So if you don't have, you know, high sweat rates,
link |
it means you're going to have to sit in the sauna
link |
for longer and longer and longer
link |
to get the same delta in sweat release.
link |
So the more acclimated you are,
link |
the more your body is thermogenically adapted,
link |
the more sweat glands you have,
link |
the smaller pores, you can sweat more
link |
and therefore you'll lose that fluid quicker
link |
and you spend less time in the sauna.
link |
So that's why we do it,
link |
to try and promote, to limit the exposure.
link |
And it comes back to your first question,
link |
Absolutely, it's a stressor if you've got to spend,
link |
you know, two hours over, you know,
link |
over a four hour period, two hours of it sat in a sauna
link |
because you're not sweating.
link |
Where the phone doesn't work, so you can't be,
link |
no, just, you know, people will divorce them
link |
from their phone and that's a stressor in itself.
link |
Right, I mean, yes, I think, you know,
link |
there's a, you know, what we do is we, like anything,
link |
we build up in temperature,
link |
but we build up in volume of exposure.
link |
So, you know, we start with 15 minutes
link |
and then we just try to add on and add on across a time.
link |
And now for us, we kind of found about 14 sauna exposures
link |
starts to really then drive the adaptations
link |
that we're looking for.
link |
So it's not a quick fix, you know,
link |
a heat acclimation strategy has to happen
link |
long before fight week or long before the fights.
link |
You know, this is a process that has to begin, you know,
link |
eight to 10 weeks before the fight
link |
so that we can actually get that adaptation
link |
and that tolerance to the stressor,
link |
to the exposure of heat.
link |
This is interesting.
link |
Until today, when we talked about this earlier
link |
and again now, I didn't realize that,
link |
but it makes perfect sense now that I hear it,
link |
that heat adaptation is possible,
link |
that you're basically can train the body
link |
to become better at cooling itself,
link |
which is what sweating is.
link |
I mean, I should have known that before,
link |
but you know, you don't see that in the textbooks.
link |
I mean, listen, it's the same
link |
as the ketogenic conversation.
link |
You know, you're training your body
link |
to be more metabolic efficient.
link |
You're training your body to tolerate heat more.
link |
You're training your body.
link |
Like the body is, you know, as an organism,
link |
as an organic system, it's hugely adaptable.
link |
It's hugely plastic.
link |
But I think the skill is understanding the whens,
link |
the whys, and the where ofs
link |
in terms of changing the overload,
link |
changing the stimulus to drive specific adaptation.
link |
And philosophically, that's how we go about our work here.
link |
We talk about adaptation-led programming.
link |
Now, adaptation-led programming
link |
fits into every single category,
link |
not just lifting weights or running track.
link |
It fits into nutrition.
link |
It fits into sitting in the sauna.
link |
It fits into being in a cold bath or not.
link |
It fits into so many different things
link |
because we're driven by scientific insights.
link |
And that's how we really want to go about our business.
link |
I love it, I love this concept of adaptation-led programming
link |
and doing that not just in the context of, you know,
link |
throwing another plate on the bar or something like that,
link |
but in every aspect of one's training and performance.
link |
And I think there's a lot here
link |
that's applicable to the recreational athlete too.
link |
Would you say that, you know,
link |
what comes to mind is 12 weeks.
link |
It feels like 12 weeks is a nice block of time
link |
for someone to try something
link |
in terms of to try something new,
link |
see how they adapt, adapt,
link |
and then maybe switch to something new.
link |
I realize that it's very hard
link |
to throw a kind of pan timeframe around something,
link |
if someone wanted to experiment with heat adaptation
link |
or experiment with cold adaptation
link |
or change up their training regimen or diet
link |
and look at metabolic efficiency,
link |
do you think 12 weeks is a good period of time
link |
to really give something a thorough go
link |
and gain an understanding of how well
link |
or how poorly something works for oneself?
link |
Or would you say eight is enough or three?
link |
I mean, that's how long is a piece of string
link |
kind of response, right?
link |
If we're just talking arbitrary numbers.
link |
Recreational experimenter, yeah.
link |
Three months exposure, 12 week training strategy,
link |
12 week intervention is more than adequate to say,
link |
for 99% of things that change within the body
link |
that physiologically adapt to a training stimulus
link |
or an overload stimulus,
link |
you're gonna start to see either regression or progression,
link |
you know, beneficial or detrimental effects
link |
within three months.
link |
Absolutely, I would say so.
link |
Now, listen, I say that in as much as we do
link |
training blocks here that are three weeks long.
link |
That's because of this constraint
link |
that sometimes people suddenly have to,
link |
they get the call to fight.
link |
So it's like super condensed.
link |
And, you know, in that scenario,
link |
we're always conscious of,
link |
is there a body or this individual,
link |
do they have the ability to tolerate that super overload,
link |
that like super condensed exposure?
link |
Now we might be doing that purposefully.
link |
We might be trying to do an overreaching strategy
link |
where we're really trying to damage or flex something.
link |
And I don't mean like negatively damaged,
link |
but like we're trying to damage tissue
link |
to really get an adaptive response
link |
versus, you know, a more drawn out 12 week strategy,
link |
which is more coherent, more planned out,
link |
more structured in nature.
link |
But yeah, for all your listeners, I would say,
link |
if 12 weeks to engage in a process of, you know,
link |
trying to change and adapt your body
link |
or expose yourself to something is more than sufficient
link |
to see if it's gonna be the right approach for you.
link |
And I think, you know,
link |
the individual interpretation
link |
is always has to be considered.
link |
And I think that's where it comes back
link |
to be a thinking man's athlete
link |
or be a thinking man's trainer,
link |
like someone that's going through exercise.
link |
You have to consciously understand
link |
where your body's at any moment in time.
link |
You know, you've gotta be real with yourself.
link |
You can create a journal, create a log of your training,
link |
create a log of your feelings,
link |
your subjective feedback of, you know,
link |
how you felt, your mood, your sleep.
link |
Your athletes do that.
link |
Yeah, yeah, we try to promote that
link |
because again, that's part of this process, you know.
link |
Might be 12 weeks for you,
link |
but I might get the same responses in eight weeks, you know.
link |
And I think that's another critical theme here
link |
is that, you know, we could put 15 guys on the mat
link |
and give them the same workout
link |
and there's gonna be 15 different responses
link |
to that same workout
link |
because the human organism is so complex
link |
and in nature that it's gonna adapt differently.
link |
You know, some people will tolerate it.
link |
Some people are gonna be challenged by it.
link |
Some people have got a metabolic makeup
link |
that's gonna promote it.
link |
Some people are metabolically challenged by it.
link |
You know, there's just so many different things
link |
that we have to consider.
link |
And that's what we try to do here.
link |
It's the cross we bear is that we try to understand
link |
on an individual level how to optimize athletic performance.
link |
No, I think it's terrific.
link |
And you know, the athletes here are so fortunate
link |
to have this and most people out there,
link |
you know, I've certainly been trying to encourage people
link |
to learn some science and some mechanism
link |
and become scientists of their own pursuits,
link |
whether or not skill learning or athletic pursuit, et cetera.
link |
As a sort of a final question,
link |
what are some things about the UFC
link |
or something about the UFC that perhaps people don't know
link |
in terms of its overall mission
link |
or what you guys are trying to do here?
link |
I mean, I think I've become a fan of MMA
link |
and I am more and more as time moves on.
link |
Some people might be in MMA,
link |
some people not into watching MMA,
link |
but what are some things that the UFC is interested in
link |
and doing that most people might not know about
link |
and certainly I might not know about?
link |
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
link |
we try to be cutting edge.
link |
We try to be super progressive.
link |
You know, we think we've got an amazing platform here,
link |
particularly at the Performance Institute
link |
to do some really cool things
link |
that can inform many different people
link |
and that doesn't just mean the 600 or so athletes
link |
that are on our global roster.
link |
What we're trying to do is influence, you know,
link |
global community around optimizing human performance.
link |
So, you know, any moment in time,
link |
we're engaging in different technologies
link |
with different vendors, different partners,
link |
you know, exploring opportunities to, you know,
link |
learn more, share data, understand what's the best
link |
mechanisms for, you know, interpreting your body,
link |
interpreting how your body's responding to training,
link |
interpreting, you know, your nutrition
link |
or whatever it may be.
link |
We get, we're in a really privileged position to do that.
link |
But we've also, you know, hence you've been here today,
link |
you know, we're also trying to venture
link |
into some really cool areas of science and research
link |
that's got applicability that you can take
link |
from high performance athletes and apply, you know,
link |
to yourself, to, you know, Joe Blow walking down the street,
link |
you know, out there that is really interesting.
link |
And that's everything from, you know,
link |
whether it's CBD and psychedelics
link |
through to different technologies for, you know,
link |
thermal monitoring and Bluetooth heart rate monitoring
link |
or whatever it may be through to data management, et cetera,
link |
and anything in between.
link |
We've got some great partners on the nutrition side,
link |
on the psychology side, on the data side.
link |
And I think, you know, we always try to just push the envelope
link |
a little bit more.
link |
I think we keep our core mission with our athletes,
link |
but I think a lot of what we do, hence your podcast,
link |
and you know, like an amazing platform,
link |
you do such a great job of it,
link |
that, you know, we can all learn and take from, you know,
link |
the elite and interpret how it might help us
link |
and just in the general population.
link |
So I think that's, you know,
link |
that's our North Star is to provide our athletes
link |
the best integrated service of care,
link |
but we also want to influence, you know,
link |
just the global community and put the UFC
link |
at the forefront of that.
link |
That's great. Well, you guys are certainly doing it.
link |
We can't let the cat out of the bag just yet,
link |
but the things that we're gearing up to do
link |
with my laboratory and the work together,
link |
hopefully we'll be able to talk about that
link |
and share that in the year to come,
link |
but we're very excited about that.
link |
And Duncan, look, you know, I have this filter that I use
link |
when I talk to people, academics or otherwise,
link |
which is, you know, some people, they open their mouth
link |
and it doesn't make much difference,
link |
but when you speak, I learn so much.
link |
I'm going to take the protocols
link |
that I've heard about today.
link |
I'm going to think about how I'm training
link |
and how I could train differently and better,
link |
how I'm eating, how I could eat differently and better
link |
for sake of performance and just in general.
link |
So thank you so much for your time,
link |
your scientific expertise,
link |
the stuff you're doing in the practical realm, it's immense.
link |
So hopefully we can do it again.
link |
This has been a blast.
link |
And yeah, keep doing what you're doing
link |
because I know there's a lot of people out there
link |
that love the platform.
link |
So thanks for the invite.
link |
It's been awesome.
link |
Thank you. Thanks so much.
link |
Thank you for joining me for my conversation
link |
with Dr. Duncan French.
link |
I hope you found it as insightful and informative as I did.
link |
If you're enjoying this podcast and or learning from it,
link |
please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
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Please also leave us a comment or a suggestion
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of a future topic or future guests
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that you'd like us to have on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
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In addition, please subscribe to our podcast
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on Apple and Spotify.
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And on Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
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Please also check out the sponsors that we mentioned
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at the beginning of this episode.
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That's a terrific way to support this podcast.
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We also have a Patreon.
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It's patreon.com slash Andrew Huberman,
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and there you can support the podcast
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at any level that you like.
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Many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast,
link |
we discuss supplements, supplements for sleep,
link |
supplements for focus,
link |
and for other health benefits as well.
link |
While supplements may not be for everybody,
link |
if you're going to use supplements,
link |
you want to make sure that those supplements
link |
are of the very highest quality.
link |
For that reason, we've partnered with Thorne, T-H-O-R-N-E,
link |
because Thorne supplements are of the very highest quality
link |
and the amounts of ingredients listed
link |
on the label of Thorne supplements
link |
precisely matches what is actually contained
link |
in those capsules, bottles, and pills,
link |
and powders, and so forth.
link |
This is extremely important.
link |
A lot of analysis of supplements and supplement companies
link |
have shown that what's listed on the bottle
link |
is often not what's actually contained in the bottle.
link |
Thorne's stringency is unmatched.
link |
They've partnered with all the major sports teams,
link |
with the Mayo Clinic,
link |
and so there's a lot of trust in Thorne supplements
link |
for all the right reasons.
link |
If you'd like to try Thorne supplements,
link |
you can see the supplements that I take.
link |
You can go to thorne.com slash the letter U slash Huberman.
link |
There you can see the supplements that I take.
link |
You can get 20% off any of those supplements.
link |
And if you navigate into the Thorne site
link |
through that portal,
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you can get 20% off any of the supplements that Thorne makes.
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I'd also like to mention
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that if you're not already following us
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on Instagram at Huberman Lab,
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you might want to do so there.
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I do brief science tutorials and offer science-based
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protocols for all sorts of things that are often separate
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from the protocols and information
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covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
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We're also on Twitter as Huberman Lab.
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And last and certainly not least,
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thank you for your interest in science.
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I'll see you next time.