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Controlling Your Dopamine For Motivation, Focus & Satisfaction | Huberman Lab Podcast #39



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Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,
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where we discuss science and science-based tools
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for everyday life.
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I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology
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and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
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Today, we are going to talk all about dopamine
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and what drives you to do the things that you do.
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We're going to talk about motivation and desire and craving,
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but also how dopamine relates to satisfaction
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and our feelings of wellbeing.
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And of course, any discussion about dopamine
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has to include a discussion about the potential
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for dopamine-induced addiction.
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Indeed, dopamine lies at the heart of addiction
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to all things, but today we are mainly going to focus on
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how what we do and how we do it
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and how we conceptualize those things
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leads to changes in this amazing molecule
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in our brain and bodies that we call dopamine.
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I'm going to teach you what dopamine is and what it is not.
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There are a lot of myths about the molecule dopamine.
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We often hear about so-called dopamine hits.
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Today, we are going to dispel many common myths
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about dopamine, and we are going to talk about
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how dopamine actually works.
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We're going to discuss the biology of dopamine,
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the psychology, we will discuss some neural circuits,
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and a really exciting aspect of dopamine biology
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are so-called dopamine schedules.
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In other words, we are going to discuss
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how things like food, drugs, caffeine, pornography,
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even some plant-based compounds
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can change our baseline levels of dopamine,
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and in doing so, they change how much dopamine
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we are capable of experiencing
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from what could be very satisfying events
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or events that make us feel not so good
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because of things that we did or took prior.
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So I promise you it's going to be a vast discussion,
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but I will structure it for you,
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and you'll come away with a deep understanding
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of really what drives you.
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You will also come away with a lot of tools,
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how to leverage dopamine
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so that you can sustain energy drive and motivation
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for the things that are important to you
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over long periods of time.
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Before we dive into the meat of today's discussion,
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I'd like to share with you a fascinating result
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that really underscores what dopamine is capable of
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in our brains and bodies,
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and underscores the fact that just through behaviors,
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no drugs, nothing of that sort, just through behaviors,
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we can achieve terrifically high increases in dopamine
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that are very long and sustained in ways that serve us.
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This is a result that was published
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in the European Journal of Physiology.
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I'll go into it in more detail later,
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but essentially what it involved is having human subjects
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get into water of different temperatures.
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So it was warm water, moderately cool water,
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and cold, cold water.
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Had them stay in that water for up to an hour,
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and they measured, by way of blood draw,
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things like cortisol, norepinephrine, and dopamine.
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What was fascinating is that cold water exposure
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led to very rapid increases in norepinephrine and epinephrine
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which is also just called adrenaline.
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It also led to increases in dopamine,
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and these increases in dopamine were very significant.
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They kicked in around 10 or 15 minutes
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after submersion into the cold water,
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and I should mention the head wasn't below water,
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it was just up to the neck.
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And the dopamine release continued to rise and rise and rise
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and eventually reached 250% above baseline.
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Now, what was interesting is after subjects got out
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of this cold water, that dopamine increase was sustained.
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And I know nowadays many people are interested
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in using cold water therapy as a way to increase metabolism
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and fat loss, but also to improve sense of wellbeing
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improve cognition, improve clarity of mind.
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You know, there's something really special
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about this very alert but calm state of mind
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that seems to be the one that's optimal
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for pretty much everything except sleep,
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but for all aspects of work and for social engagement
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and for sport, that highly alert but calm state of mind
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really is the sweet spot that I believe most of us
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would like to achieve.
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And this cold water exposure done correctly
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really can help people achieve that state of mind
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through these increases in dopamine
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that lasts a very long time.
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So I will later detail the specifics of that study,
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what it entailed in terms of how long the variations
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that different subjects experienced,
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as well as how to limit the amount of stress hormone cortisol
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that's released as a consequence of the cold water.
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And we will also talk about compounds,
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supplements that people can take
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in order to increase their levels of dopamine
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should they choose.
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Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast
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is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
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It is however, part of my desire and effort
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to bring zero cost to consumer information about science
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and science related tools to the general public.
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In keeping with that theme,
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I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
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that some of you may find very useful.
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This is an event put on by Logitech
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that I will be speaking at.
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It's called Rethink Education, The Biology of Learning,
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Reimagining Learning Through Neuroscience.
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And at this event, I will be speaking,
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there will be other speakers as well.
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And I will be talking about neuroplasticity
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and its applications for teaching and for learning.
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I will describe what I call the plasticity super protocol
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that incorporates all of what we know about rapid learning,
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efficient learning, and the best ways to teach and learn.
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It's geared towards educators of all kinds.
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It is zero cost.
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So please feel free to sign up.
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The event is September 30th, 2021 at 3 PM Eastern.
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You can find the registration link
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in the caption for this episode.
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So let's talk about dopamine.
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Most people have heard of dopamine
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and we hear all the time now about dopamine hits,
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but actually there's no such thing as a dopamine hit.
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And actually the way that your body uses dopamine
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is to have a baseline level of dopamine,
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meaning an amount of dopamine
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that's circulating in your brain and body all the time.
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And that turns out to be important
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for how you feel generally,
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whether or not you're in a good mood, motivated, et cetera.
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And you also can experience peaks
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in dopamine above baseline.
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This has a very specific name in the neurobiology literature,
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so-called tonic and phasic release of dopamine.
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And I'll explain what that means in a couple of minutes.
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But if you remember nothing else from this episode,
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please remember this, that when you experience something
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or you crave something really desirable,
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really exciting to you, very pleasurable,
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what happens afterwards is your baseline level
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of dopamine drops, okay?
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So these peaks in dopamine,
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they influence how much dopamine
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will generally be circulating afterward.
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And you might think, oh, a big peak in dopamine,
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after that, I'm going to feel even better
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because I just had this great event.
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Not the case, what actually happens
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is that your baseline level of dopamine drops.
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And I will explain the precise mechanism for that, okay?
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In the neuroscience literature,
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we refer to this as tonic and phasic release of dopamine.
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Tonic being the low level baseline
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that's always there circulating,
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released into your brain all the time.
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And then phasic, these peaks that ride above that baseline.
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And those two things interact.
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And this is really important.
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I'm going to teach you the underlying neurobiology,
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but even if you have no background in biology,
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I promise to make it all clear.
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I'll explain the terms and what they mean.
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And I'm excited to teach you about dopamine
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because dopamine has everything to do
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with how you feel right now as you're listening to this.
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It has everything to do with how you will feel
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an hour from now,
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has everything to do with your level of motivation
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and your level of desire
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and your willingness to push through effort.
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If ever you've interacted with somebody
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who just doesn't seem to have any drive they've given up,
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or if you've interacted with somebody
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who seems to have endless drive and energy,
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what you are looking at there in those two circumstances
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is without question a difference
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in the level of dopamine circulating in their system.
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There will be other factors too,
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but the level of dopamine is the primary determinant
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of how motivated we are, how excited we are,
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how outward facing we are,
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and how willing we are to lean into life and pursue things.
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Dopamine is what we call a neuromodulator.
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Neuromodulators are different than neurotransmitters.
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Neurotransmitters are involved in the dialogue
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between neurons, nerve cells,
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and neurotransmitters tend to mediate local communication.
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Just imagine two people talking to one another at a concert.
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That communication between them is analogous
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to the communication carried out by neurotransmitters,
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whereas neuromodulators influence the communication
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of many neurons.
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Imagine a bunch of people dancing
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where it's a coordinated dance
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involving 10 or 20 or hundreds of people.
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Neuromodulators are coordinating that dance.
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In the nervous system, what this means
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is that dopamine release changes the probability
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that certain neural circuits will be active
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and that other neural circuits will be inactive, okay?
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So it modulates a bunch of things all at once,
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and that's why it's so powerful
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at shifting not just our levels of energy,
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but also our mindset,
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also our feelings of whether or not we can
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or cannot accomplish something.
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So how does dopamine work and what does it do?
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Well, first of all, it is not just responsible for pleasure.
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It is responsible for motivation and drive primarily
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at the psychological level, also for craving.
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Those three things are sort of the same,
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motivation, drive, and craving.
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It also controls time perception,
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and we will get deep into how dopamine
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can modulate time perception and how important it is
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that everybody be able to access increases in dopamine
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00:14:12.040
at different timescales.
link |
00:14:13.480
This turns out to be important
link |
00:14:14.720
to not end up addicted to substances,
link |
00:14:16.720
but it also turns out to be very important
link |
00:14:18.980
to sustain effort and be a happy person
link |
00:14:21.120
over long periods of time,
link |
00:14:22.400
which I think most everybody wants.
link |
00:14:24.680
It certainly is adaptive in life to be able to do that.
link |
00:14:27.880
Dopamine is also vitally important for movement.
link |
00:14:31.260
I'll explain the neural circuits for dopamine and mindset
link |
00:14:35.000
and dopamine and movement in a moment,
link |
00:14:37.540
but in diseases like Parkinson's or Lewy's body's dementia,
link |
00:14:42.540
which is similar to Parkinson's in many ways,
link |
00:14:45.780
there's a depletion or death of dopamine neurons
link |
00:14:48.220
at a particular location in the brain,
link |
00:14:50.160
which leads to shaky movements, challenges in speaking,
link |
00:14:54.420
challenges in particular in initiating movement.
link |
00:14:57.580
And because dopamine is depleted elsewhere too,
link |
00:15:01.620
people with Parkinson's and Lewy's, excuse me,
link |
00:15:04.380
Lewy body dementia also experience drops in motivation
link |
00:15:08.420
and affect, meaning mood.
link |
00:15:10.140
They tend to get depressed and so on.
link |
00:15:12.780
When those people are properly treated,
link |
00:15:15.380
they can, not always,
link |
00:15:17.300
but they can recover some fluidity of movement,
link |
00:15:20.340
some ability to initiate movement.
link |
00:15:22.140
And almost without question,
link |
00:15:23.980
those people feel better psychologically,
link |
00:15:26.820
not just because they can move,
link |
00:15:28.020
but also because dopamine impacts mood and motivation.
link |
00:15:31.660
So what are the underlying neural circuits?
link |
00:15:35.420
For those of you that are not interested in biology
link |
00:15:38.020
and specific nomenclature,
link |
00:15:39.100
you can tune out now if you want,
link |
00:15:40.860
but it's actually pretty straightforward.
link |
00:15:42.620
You have two main neural circuits in the brain
link |
00:15:45.580
that dopamine uses in order to exert all its effects.
link |
00:15:50.700
The first one is a pathway that goes from this area
link |
00:15:54.540
in the what's called the ventral tegmentum.
link |
00:15:56.820
That's a fancy, but ventral just means bottom
link |
00:15:58.940
and tegmentum actually means floor.
link |
00:16:01.060
So it's at the bottom of the brain
link |
00:16:02.860
and it's the ventral part of the floor.
link |
00:16:04.540
So it's really low in the back of the brain,
link |
00:16:06.300
the ventral tegmentum, and it goes from
link |
00:16:09.780
the ventral tegmentum to what's called
link |
00:16:12.660
the ventral striatum and the prefrontal cortex.
link |
00:16:15.340
Now that's a lot of language,
link |
00:16:16.500
but basically what we call this
link |
00:16:17.820
is the mesocorticolimbic pathway.
link |
00:16:20.260
This is the pathway by which dopamine influences motivation,
link |
00:16:25.220
drive, and craving.
link |
00:16:27.220
It involves structures that some of you
link |
00:16:28.740
may have heard of before,
link |
00:16:29.620
things like nucleus accumbens and the prefrontal cortex.
link |
00:16:32.900
This is the pathway that really gets disrupted
link |
00:16:35.620
in addictions where in particular drugs
link |
00:16:39.300
that influence the release of dopamine,
link |
00:16:41.180
like cocaine and methamphetamine,
link |
00:16:42.580
we'll talk about those drugs today,
link |
00:16:44.060
they tap into this pathway.
link |
00:16:45.580
But if you are pursuing a partner,
link |
00:16:49.460
a boyfriend or girlfriend,
link |
00:16:50.420
if you're pursuing a degree in school,
link |
00:16:52.400
if you're pursuing a finish line in a race,
link |
00:16:54.780
you are tapping into the so-called mesocorticolimbic pathway.
link |
00:16:58.340
This is the classic reward pathway in all mammals.
link |
00:17:03.340
The other pathway emerges from an area in the brain
link |
00:17:06.820
called the substantia nigra,
link |
00:17:08.660
so-called because the cells in that area are dark
link |
00:17:13.560
and the substantia nigra connects to an area of the brain
link |
00:17:17.060
called the dorsal striatum.
link |
00:17:18.420
This is not surprisingly called the nigrostriatal pathway.
link |
00:17:22.480
For those of you who have never done any neuroanatomy,
link |
00:17:24.460
I'm going to teach you a little trick right now.
link |
00:17:26.340
Everything in neuroanatomy,
link |
00:17:27.720
the first part of a word tells you where the neurons are.
link |
00:17:32.420
And then the second part tells you
link |
00:17:33.580
where they are connecting to.
link |
00:17:34.760
So when I say nigrostriatal pathway,
link |
00:17:37.300
it means that the neurons are in the substantia nigra
link |
00:17:39.360
and they connect to the striatum, nigrostriatal pathway.
link |
00:17:42.520
So while it's a lot of language, there is some logic there.
link |
00:17:45.500
Okay, so we've got these two pathways,
link |
00:17:47.660
one mainly for movement, right?
link |
00:17:49.860
This is the substantia nigra to dorsal striatum.
link |
00:17:53.020
And we've got this other pathway,
link |
00:17:55.620
the so-called mesocorticolimbic pathway
link |
00:17:57.280
that's for reward reinforcement and motivation.
link |
00:17:59.920
I want you to remember that there are two pathways.
link |
00:18:03.740
If you don't remember the two pathways in detail,
link |
00:18:05.940
that's fine.
link |
00:18:06.780
But please remember that there are two pathways
link |
00:18:08.740
because that turns out to be important later.
link |
00:18:10.620
Now, the other thing to understand about dopamine
link |
00:18:12.700
is that the way that dopamine is released
link |
00:18:16.180
in the brain and body can differ,
link |
00:18:19.460
meaning it can be very local or it can be more broad.
link |
00:18:24.660
Now, most of you have probably heard of synapses.
link |
00:18:27.460
Synapses are the little spaces between neurons
link |
00:18:30.620
and basically neurons,
link |
00:18:31.720
nerve cells communicate with one another
link |
00:18:33.860
by making each other electrically active
link |
00:18:36.280
or by making each other less electrically active.
link |
00:18:39.780
So here's how this works.
link |
00:18:40.620
You can imagine one nerve cell and another nerve cell
link |
00:18:43.080
with a little gap between them, a little synapse.
link |
00:18:45.660
And the way that one nerve cell
link |
00:18:47.760
causes the next nerve cell to fire,
link |
00:18:49.860
what we call fire really means to become electrically active
link |
00:18:52.580
is that it vomits out these little packets,
link |
00:18:55.500
what we call vesicles.
link |
00:18:56.440
They're little bubbles filled with a chemical.
link |
00:18:58.900
When that chemical enters the synapse,
link |
00:19:01.720
some of it docks or parks on the other side
link |
00:19:04.960
in the other neuron.
link |
00:19:06.300
And by virtue of electrical changes
link |
00:19:09.320
in what we call the postsynaptic neuron,
link |
00:19:12.380
that chemical will make that neuron
link |
00:19:14.460
more electrically active or less electrically active.
link |
00:19:17.540
Dopamine can do that like any other neurotransmitter
link |
00:19:20.940
or neuromodulator.
link |
00:19:22.440
So it can have one neuron influence another neuron,
link |
00:19:25.960
but dopamine can also engage
link |
00:19:28.220
in what's called a volumetric release.
link |
00:19:30.460
Volumetric release is like a giant vomit
link |
00:19:33.580
that gets out to 50 or a hundred or even thousands of cells.
link |
00:19:37.820
So there's local release, what we call synaptic release,
link |
00:19:40.460
and then there's volumetric release.
link |
00:19:41.940
So volumetric release is like dumping all this dopamine
link |
00:19:44.720
out into the system.
link |
00:19:46.260
So dopamine is incredible because it can change the way
link |
00:19:50.180
that our neural circuits work at a local scale
link |
00:19:52.860
and at a very broad scale.
link |
00:19:54.780
And for those of you that are only interested in tools,
link |
00:19:57.300
like how do I get more dopamine?
link |
00:19:59.120
Let me tell you, this part is really important
link |
00:20:01.740
because if you were to take a drug or supplement
link |
00:20:05.620
that increases your level of dopamine,
link |
00:20:07.580
you are influencing both the local release of dopamine
link |
00:20:11.700
and volumetric release.
link |
00:20:13.860
This relates back to the baseline of dopamine
link |
00:20:16.160
and the big peak above baseline.
link |
00:20:18.900
And that turns out to be important.
link |
00:20:20.500
And I'll just allude to why it's important.
link |
00:20:23.180
Many drugs and indeed many supplements
link |
00:20:26.700
that increase dopamine will actually make it harder
link |
00:20:31.060
for you to sustain dopamine release
link |
00:20:33.080
over long periods of time and to achieve those peaks
link |
00:20:36.480
that most of us are craving when we are in pursuit of things.
link |
00:20:39.660
Why?
link |
00:20:40.640
Because if you get both volumetric release,
link |
00:20:43.540
the dumping out of dopamine everywhere,
link |
00:20:45.340
and you're getting local release,
link |
00:20:47.220
what it means is that the difference
link |
00:20:48.780
between the peak and baseline is likely to be smaller.
link |
00:20:52.820
And this is very important, how satisfying or exciting
link |
00:20:57.820
or pleasureful a given experience is
link |
00:21:00.700
doesn't just depend on the height of that peak.
link |
00:21:03.880
It depends on the height of that peak
link |
00:21:05.820
relative to the baseline.
link |
00:21:08.060
So if you increase the baseline and you increase the peak,
link |
00:21:12.360
you're not going to achieve
link |
00:21:13.660
more and more pleasure from things.
link |
00:21:15.760
I'll talk about how to leverage this information
link |
00:21:18.840
in a little bit, but just increasing your dopamine
link |
00:21:22.780
yes, it will make you excited for all things.
link |
00:21:25.220
It will make you feel very motivated,
link |
00:21:26.960
but it will also make that motivation very short lived.
link |
00:21:31.220
So there's a better way to increase your dopamine.
link |
00:21:34.700
There's a better way to optimize
link |
00:21:36.260
this peak to baseline ratio.
link |
00:21:38.260
For now what we've talked about is two main neural circuits,
link |
00:21:41.140
one for movement and one for motivation
link |
00:21:42.980
and craving with dopamine.
link |
00:21:45.040
And we've talked about two main modes of communication
link |
00:21:47.880
between neurons with dopamine.
link |
00:21:50.460
One is this local synaptic release.
link |
00:21:53.800
One is more volumetric release.
link |
00:21:56.500
And in the back of your mind,
link |
00:21:57.580
you can relate this back to again,
link |
00:21:59.200
this baseline versus peaks above baseline.
link |
00:22:02.220
So that's a description of what we would call
link |
00:22:03.980
the spatial effects or the spatial aspects of dopamine.
link |
00:22:08.920
I said, this connects to that, that connects to this.
link |
00:22:11.120
You can get local or more broad volumetric release.
link |
00:22:13.920
What about the duration of release
link |
00:22:16.140
or the duration of action for dopamine?
link |
00:22:19.020
Well, dopamine is unique among chemicals in the brain
link |
00:22:23.300
because dopamine, unlike a lot of chemicals in the brain,
link |
00:22:26.620
works through what are called G protein coupled receptors.
link |
00:22:29.460
And for those of you that are about to pass out
link |
00:22:31.100
from the amount of detail, just hang in there with me.
link |
00:22:32.980
It's really not complicated.
link |
00:22:34.980
There are two ways that neurons can communicate
link |
00:22:38.260
or mainly two ways.
link |
00:22:39.500
There are a third and a fourth,
link |
00:22:40.660
but mostly neurons communicate by two modes.
link |
00:22:45.620
One are what we call fast electrical synapses.
link |
00:22:48.980
Ionotropic conduction, all right?
link |
00:22:51.380
You don't need to know what that means,
link |
00:22:52.260
but basically one neuron activates another neuron
link |
00:22:56.300
and little holes open up in that neuron and ions rush in.
link |
00:23:00.700
Sodium is the main ion, salt,
link |
00:23:03.820
by which one neuron influences the electrical activity
link |
00:23:06.700
of another neuron because sodium ions contain a charge.
link |
00:23:09.980
Okay, there are other things like chloride and potassium.
link |
00:23:12.460
If you're interested in looking this up, just look up.
link |
00:23:14.900
Ionic conductance is in the action potential,
link |
00:23:17.180
or I could do a post on it sometime
link |
00:23:18.700
and we could go into detail,
link |
00:23:20.540
but just understand that when neurons
link |
00:23:22.000
want to influence each other,
link |
00:23:23.400
they can do it by way of this fast ionotropic conduction.
link |
00:23:26.520
This is a really quick way
link |
00:23:28.820
for one neuron to influence the next.
link |
00:23:31.900
Dopamine doesn't communicate that way.
link |
00:23:34.220
Dopamine is slower.
link |
00:23:35.700
It works through what are called
link |
00:23:36.620
G protein coupled receptors.
link |
00:23:38.520
So what happens is dopamine is released
link |
00:23:40.580
in these little vesicles that I've mentioned before,
link |
00:23:42.560
get vomited out into the synapse.
link |
00:23:45.020
Some of that dopamine will bind
link |
00:23:47.300
to the so-called postsynaptic neuron.
link |
00:23:49.420
It'll bind to the next neuron.
link |
00:23:50.740
And then it sets off a cascade.
link |
00:23:53.300
It's kind of like a bucket brigade
link |
00:23:54.700
of one thing getting handed off to the next,
link |
00:23:56.580
to the next, to the next.
link |
00:23:58.020
It's G protein coupled receptors.
link |
00:24:00.380
And anytime you hear about these GPCRs
link |
00:24:02.140
or G protein coupled receptors,
link |
00:24:04.380
pay attention because they're really interesting.
link |
00:24:06.620
They're slow,
link |
00:24:07.880
but they also can have multiple cascades of effects.
link |
00:24:11.120
They can impact even gene expression at some level.
link |
00:24:14.340
They can change what a cell actually becomes.
link |
00:24:17.220
They can change how well or how poorly
link |
00:24:20.100
that cell will respond to the same signal in the future.
link |
00:24:23.960
So dopamine works through the slower process,
link |
00:24:26.740
these G protein coupled receptors.
link |
00:24:28.420
And so its effects tend to take a while in order to occur.
link |
00:24:34.260
This aspect of dopamine transmission is important
link |
00:24:37.800
because it now underscores two things.
link |
00:24:39.460
One, there's two pathways for dopamine to communicate,
link |
00:24:42.500
one for movement, one for motivation and craving.
link |
00:24:44.660
There's two spatial scales at which dopamine can operate
link |
00:24:49.020
synaptically or volumetrically.
link |
00:24:51.220
And dopamine can have slow effects, really slow effects,
link |
00:24:56.220
or even very long lasting effects.
link |
00:24:58.280
And it even can control gene expression.
link |
00:25:00.860
It can actually change the way that cells behave.
link |
00:25:03.460
One thing that's not often discussed about dopamine,
link |
00:25:05.520
but is extremely important to know
link |
00:25:07.900
is that dopamine doesn't work on its own.
link |
00:25:11.040
Neurons that release dopamine co-release glutamate.
link |
00:25:15.880
Glutamate is a neurotransmitter,
link |
00:25:18.540
and it's a neurotransmitter that is excitatory,
link |
00:25:21.200
meaning it stimulates neurons to be electrically active.
link |
00:25:24.760
So now, even if you don't know any cell biology,
link |
00:25:28.700
you should start to gain a picture
link |
00:25:29.940
that dopamine is responsible for movement,
link |
00:25:32.560
motivation, and drive.
link |
00:25:34.340
It does that through two pathways,
link |
00:25:35.740
but also the dopamine stimulates action in general
link |
00:25:39.680
because it releases this excitatory neurotransmitter.
link |
00:25:41.980
It tends to make certain neurons that are nearby,
link |
00:25:45.900
or even that are far away because of volumetric release,
link |
00:25:48.260
it tends to make those more active.
link |
00:25:50.080
So dopamine is really stimulating.
link |
00:25:52.260
And indeed, we say that dopaminergic transmission
link |
00:25:56.340
or dopamine tends to stimulate sympathetic arousal.
link |
00:26:00.620
Sympathetic doesn't have anything to do with sympathy.
link |
00:26:02.700
It's just simply means that it tends
link |
00:26:05.260
to increase our levels of alertness.
link |
00:26:07.300
It tends to bring an animal or a human
link |
00:26:09.700
into a state of more alertness, readiness,
link |
00:26:12.880
and desire to pursue things outside the confines
link |
00:26:16.300
of its skin.
link |
00:26:17.400
So if I were to just put a really simple message
link |
00:26:21.040
around dopamine, it would be,
link |
00:26:22.820
there's a molecule in your brain and body
link |
00:26:24.880
that when released tends to make you look outside yourself,
link |
00:26:30.120
pursue things outside yourself,
link |
00:26:32.620
and to crave things outside yourself.
link |
00:26:35.760
The pleasure that arrives from achieving things
link |
00:26:39.080
also involves dopamine,
link |
00:26:40.460
but is mainly the consequence of other molecules.
link |
00:26:43.820
But if ever you felt lethargic and like just lazy
link |
00:26:46.600
and you had no motivation or drive,
link |
00:26:48.280
that's a low dopamine state.
link |
00:26:50.480
If ever you felt really excited, motivated,
link |
00:26:52.960
even if you were a little scared to do something,
link |
00:26:55.680
maybe you did your first skydive
link |
00:26:57.040
or you're about to do your first skydive
link |
00:26:59.000
or you're about to do some public speaking
link |
00:27:00.480
and you really don't want to screw it up,
link |
00:27:02.820
you are in a high dopamine state.
link |
00:27:05.600
Dopamine is a universal currency in all mammals,
link |
00:27:08.880
but especially in humans for moving us toward goals
link |
00:27:13.680
and how much dopamine is in our system at any one time
link |
00:27:17.640
compared to how much dopamine was in our system
link |
00:27:20.520
a few minutes ago and how much we remember
link |
00:27:24.220
enjoying a particular experience of the past.
link |
00:27:27.740
That dictates your so-called quality of life
link |
00:27:30.740
and your desire to pursue things.
link |
00:27:33.260
This is really important.
link |
00:27:34.180
Dopamine is a currency
link |
00:27:36.280
and it's the way that you track pleasure.
link |
00:27:38.600
It's the way that you track success.
link |
00:27:40.360
It's the way that you track whether or not
link |
00:27:42.520
you are doing well or doing poorly.
link |
00:27:44.920
And that is subjective.
link |
00:27:47.000
But if your dopamine is too low,
link |
00:27:50.340
you will not feel motivated.
link |
00:27:52.000
If your dopamine is really high, you will feel motivated.
link |
00:27:55.360
And if your dopamine is somewhere in the middle,
link |
00:27:57.760
how you feel depends on whether or not
link |
00:27:59.680
you had higher dopamine a few minutes ago
link |
00:28:02.720
or lower dopamine.
link |
00:28:04.240
This is important.
link |
00:28:05.760
Your experience of life and your level of motivation
link |
00:28:08.800
and drive depends on how much dopamine you have
link |
00:28:13.480
relative to your recent experience.
link |
00:28:17.080
This is, again, something that's just not accounted for
link |
00:28:20.560
in the simple language of dopamine hits, okay?
link |
00:28:23.760
A simple way to envision dopamine hits
link |
00:28:26.860
is every time you do something you like,
link |
00:28:28.320
you eat a piece of chocolate, dopamine hit.
link |
00:28:29.920
You look at your Instagram, dopamine hit.
link |
00:28:31.640
You see someone you like, dopamine hit.
link |
00:28:34.280
All these things described as dopamine hits
link |
00:28:37.540
neglect the fact that if you scroll social media
link |
00:28:40.640
and you see something you really like, dopamine hit.
link |
00:28:43.740
Sure, there's an increase in dopamine.
link |
00:28:45.800
But then you get to something else and you go,
link |
00:28:48.320
hmm, not that interesting.
link |
00:28:49.680
However, had you arrived at that second thing first,
link |
00:28:53.520
you might think that it was really interesting.
link |
00:28:56.780
If you had arrived to that second Instagram post
link |
00:28:59.540
three days later or four days later,
link |
00:29:01.560
you might find it extremely interesting.
link |
00:29:03.940
Again, how much dopamine you experience from something
link |
00:29:07.260
depends on your baseline level of dopamine
link |
00:29:09.320
when you arrive there and your previous dopamine peaks, okay?
link |
00:29:14.680
That's super important to understand.
link |
00:29:16.600
And it's completely neglected
link |
00:29:18.120
by the general language of dopamine hits.
link |
00:29:20.180
This is why when you repeatedly engage in something
link |
00:29:23.680
that you enjoy, your threshold for enjoyment
link |
00:29:27.140
goes up and up and up.
link |
00:29:29.040
So I want to talk about that process
link |
00:29:30.960
and I want to explain how that process works
link |
00:29:33.060
because if you understand that process
link |
00:29:34.840
and you understand some of these schedules and kinetics
link |
00:29:37.760
as we call them around dopamine,
link |
00:29:39.000
you will be in a terrific position
link |
00:29:40.840
to use any dopamine enhancing tools that you decide to use.
link |
00:29:44.560
You'll be in an excellent position to modulate
link |
00:29:46.860
and control your own dopamine release
link |
00:29:48.760
for optimal motivation and drive.
link |
00:29:50.960
I realized that was a lot of information
link |
00:29:53.360
about the biology of dopamine,
link |
00:29:55.000
sort of like trying to make you drink
link |
00:29:56.480
from the fire hose of dopamine biology.
link |
00:29:59.280
However, I realized that some people probably want
link |
00:30:01.360
even more information about the biology
link |
00:30:03.880
of dopamine transmission.
link |
00:30:05.720
If you're interested in that,
link |
00:30:07.240
I'll post a link to a absolutely stellar review
link |
00:30:09.840
that was published in Nature Reviews Neuroscience
link |
00:30:12.360
called Spatial and Temporal Scales of Dopamine Transmission.
link |
00:30:15.480
It is quite detailed, but they have beautiful diagrams
link |
00:30:18.240
and can walk you through all the things
link |
00:30:20.280
that I just described and get into even more detail.
link |
00:30:22.680
We'll put a link to that in the caption on YouTube.
link |
00:30:25.300
Right now, I want to share with you two anecdotes,
link |
00:30:29.380
one from my own life and one from some fairly recent history
link |
00:30:34.220
that illustrate some of the core biology of dopamine
link |
00:30:38.140
and how profoundly it can shape our experience.
link |
00:30:41.560
The first one is a really tragic situation that occurred.
link |
00:30:47.160
This was in the 80s.
link |
00:30:49.300
There was a outbreak of what looked like
link |
00:30:52.780
Parkinsonian symptoms in a young population.
link |
00:30:56.300
So many of you heard of Parkinson's disease.
link |
00:30:58.200
Parkinson's disease is a disease
link |
00:31:00.260
in which people initially start to quake,
link |
00:31:03.660
can't generate smooth movements.
link |
00:31:05.080
They'll have issues with speech,
link |
00:31:06.300
sometimes cognition as well.
link |
00:31:08.540
There are examples like Michael J. Fox,
link |
00:31:10.940
which are kind of early onset Parkinson's.
link |
00:31:13.500
Typically, it hits people a little bit later in life.
link |
00:31:16.660
There's a genetic component,
link |
00:31:19.620
but there is this question
link |
00:31:22.060
and there's always been this question
link |
00:31:23.180
whether or not certain lifestyle factors
link |
00:31:25.260
can also create Parkinson's.
link |
00:31:27.580
And some years ago,
link |
00:31:29.740
there was a situation where a laboratory,
link |
00:31:33.580
street laboratories, illicit laboratories,
link |
00:31:37.020
were trying to make a drug called MPPP,
link |
00:31:39.980
which is an opioid-like compound.
link |
00:31:41.780
It's a bit like heroin and heroin addicts seeking heroin
link |
00:31:47.260
went out and bought what they thought was MPPP.
link |
00:31:50.680
Unfortunately, it was not MPPP.
link |
00:31:56.120
I mean, it would have been tragic if it was anyway,
link |
00:31:58.000
because they were drug addicts,
link |
00:31:59.200
but what they ended up taking turned out to be a lot worse.
link |
00:32:02.280
What they ended up taking was MPTP,
link |
00:32:05.740
and MPTP can arise in the synthesis of MPPP.
link |
00:32:10.740
So someone in a lab someplace,
link |
00:32:12.680
this was mainly in the Central Valley in California,
link |
00:32:14.660
but elsewhere as well,
link |
00:32:16.820
somebody created MPTP.
link |
00:32:20.160
And what ended up happening was a large number
link |
00:32:23.820
of young people who were opioid addicts
link |
00:32:26.800
became completely boxed in, paralyzed,
link |
00:32:30.240
couldn't speak, couldn't blink, couldn't do anything,
link |
00:32:34.240
couldn't function, couldn't move.
link |
00:32:35.800
So both aspects of dopamine transmission were disrupted.
link |
00:32:40.940
They had no motivation and drive.
link |
00:32:43.300
They couldn't generate any movement of any kind.
link |
00:32:45.740
They were literally locked in frozen.
link |
00:32:48.740
And sadly, this is irreversible.
link |
00:32:51.540
It's irreversible because what MPTP does
link |
00:32:54.900
is it kills the dopaminergic neurons
link |
00:32:58.180
of the substantia nigra, that nigrostriatal pathway
link |
00:33:00.900
that's involved in generating movement,
link |
00:33:02.780
and it kills the dopaminergic neurons
link |
00:33:05.180
of the so-called mesocorticolimbic pathway.
link |
00:33:07.940
I was in college when this whole MPTP thing happened,
link |
00:33:10.980
and I remember hearing this story.
link |
00:33:13.100
At the time, I had no understanding of what it is
link |
00:33:16.300
to have very high levels of dopamine or extremely depleted
link |
00:33:19.620
levels of dopamine.
link |
00:33:20.660
There was no reason why I should have that understanding.
link |
00:33:22.560
I mean, of course, I had experienced different pleasures
link |
00:33:24.700
of different kinds, and I've had lows in my life,
link |
00:33:27.660
but nothing to the extreme that I'm about to discuss.
link |
00:33:33.760
I got Giardia, and Giardia is a stomach bug
link |
00:33:38.060
that if any of you ever had it, it is terrible.
link |
00:33:40.620
It's terrible diarrhea.
link |
00:33:41.960
You end up very dehydrated very quickly.
link |
00:33:43.940
You drop a ton of weight, and it is extremely unpleasant.
link |
00:33:48.960
I ended up going to the emergency room,
link |
00:33:51.660
and in the emergency room,
link |
00:33:53.780
I begged them for something to stop up my guts,
link |
00:33:56.100
and they gave it to me.
link |
00:33:57.340
They put a saline line in to rehydrate me,
link |
00:33:59.500
and they injected something into the saline bag,
link |
00:34:02.660
and within minutes, I felt more sadness,
link |
00:34:08.700
more overwhelming sense of depression,
link |
00:34:13.340
basically lower than I'd ever felt in my entire life.
link |
00:34:16.580
It was absolutely profound.
link |
00:34:19.620
I was crying endlessly without knowing why I was crying.
link |
00:34:23.680
I was miserable, and I asked them, what did you inject?
link |
00:34:26.740
And they said, we injected Thorazine.
link |
00:34:29.020
Thorazine is an anti-psychotic drug.
link |
00:34:31.540
It's actually used to block dopamine receptors.
link |
00:34:34.120
It's what's given to people who have schizophrenia,
link |
00:34:37.380
often is given to people who have schizophrenia
link |
00:34:39.420
because schizophrenia involves, among other things,
link |
00:34:42.860
elevated levels of dopamine.
link |
00:34:45.480
It was horrible.
link |
00:34:47.860
The experience of it was miserable,
link |
00:34:50.620
unlike anything I'd ever experienced.
link |
00:34:53.140
And so I actually said to them, what did you give me?
link |
00:34:56.540
They said Thorazine, and I said,
link |
00:34:58.300
you have to give me L-DOPA.
link |
00:35:00.700
You have to give me something
link |
00:35:01.780
to get my dopamine levels back up again.
link |
00:35:04.100
And they did.
link |
00:35:04.980
They gave me an injection of L-DOPA into the bag,
link |
00:35:07.320
went straight into my bloodstream,
link |
00:35:08.500
and within minutes, I felt fine again.
link |
00:35:12.220
It was incredible, and it really opened up my mind
link |
00:35:15.300
and my experience to what it is
link |
00:35:17.060
to have absolutely plummeted levels of dopamine.
link |
00:35:21.060
There's nothing more miserable than that, I'll tell you.
link |
00:35:23.120
And these poor souls who had this MPTP experience,
link |
00:35:27.820
unfortunately, they couldn't recover those cells.
link |
00:35:29.820
People who have severe Parkinson's
link |
00:35:31.980
are struggling with this as well,
link |
00:35:33.360
because in Parkinson's and in Lewy body dementia,
link |
00:35:35.500
the dopaminergic neurons often die.
link |
00:35:37.800
It's not just a problem
link |
00:35:38.700
with those neurons releasing enough dopamine.
link |
00:35:40.940
Later, we're going to talk about some approaches
link |
00:35:43.200
to maintaining dopaminergic neuron health
link |
00:35:46.040
and things that we can all do for that.
link |
00:35:47.780
But I will tell you, these dopamine neurons
link |
00:35:49.980
that we all have are very precious
link |
00:35:51.780
for movement and mood and motivation.
link |
00:35:54.240
Having experienced what it is to have very,
link |
00:35:57.100
very low levels of dopamine, or in this case,
link |
00:35:59.460
to have my dopamine receptors blocked from Thorazine,
link |
00:36:04.100
was eye-opening, to say the least,
link |
00:36:06.780
and has given me tremendous sensitivity
link |
00:36:09.060
to the fact that dopamine is perhaps
link |
00:36:12.120
one of the most powerful molecules
link |
00:36:13.900
that any of us has inside of us,
link |
00:36:16.460
and the one that we ought to all think very carefully
link |
00:36:19.120
about how we leverage.
link |
00:36:20.100
Because while most experiences and most things that we do
link |
00:36:24.900
and take and eat and et cetera,
link |
00:36:27.260
won't create enormous highs and enormous lows in dopamine,
link |
00:36:31.700
even subtle fluctuations in dopamine
link |
00:36:33.600
really shape our perception of life
link |
00:36:35.740
and what we're capable of and how we feel.
link |
00:36:38.060
And so we want to guard those,
link |
00:36:39.180
and we want to understand them.
link |
00:36:40.580
So let's lean into that understanding about dopamine,
link |
00:36:42.660
and then let's talk about some tools that we can all use
link |
00:36:45.220
to leverage dopamine in order to keep that baseline
link |
00:36:48.340
in the appropriate healthy place,
link |
00:36:50.500
and still be able to access those peaks in dopamine,
link |
00:36:53.780
because those, after all,
link |
00:36:55.500
are some of what makes life rich and worth living.
link |
00:36:58.380
So let's talk about the baseline of dopamine
link |
00:37:00.620
that we all have and the peaks in dopamine
link |
00:37:03.660
that we all can achieve through different activities
link |
00:37:07.060
and things that we ingest.
link |
00:37:10.740
All of us have different baseline levels of dopamine.
link |
00:37:13.740
Some of this is sure to be genetic.
link |
00:37:17.020
Some people just simply ride at a level a little bit higher.
link |
00:37:21.220
They're a little bit more excited.
link |
00:37:22.500
They're a little bit more motivated,
link |
00:37:24.620
or maybe they're a lot more excited
link |
00:37:25.980
or a lot more motivated.
link |
00:37:28.860
Some people are a little mellower.
link |
00:37:30.340
Some people are a little less excitable.
link |
00:37:32.460
And some of that has to do with the fact
link |
00:37:34.500
that dopamine doesn't act alone.
link |
00:37:37.180
Dopamine has close cousins or friends in the nervous system,
link |
00:37:41.300
and I'll just name off a few of those close cousins
link |
00:37:43.300
and friends.
link |
00:37:45.820
Epinephrine, also called adrenaline,
link |
00:37:48.620
is the main chemical driver of energy.
link |
00:37:52.020
We can't do anything, anything at all,
link |
00:37:55.100
unless we have some level of epinephrine
link |
00:37:56.980
in our brain and body.
link |
00:37:58.620
It's released from the adrenal glands,
link |
00:38:00.020
which ride atop our kidneys.
link |
00:38:01.180
It's released from an area of the brainstem
link |
00:38:03.420
called locus coeruleus.
link |
00:38:05.420
And its release tends to wake up neural circuits
link |
00:38:08.620
in the brain and wake up various aspects
link |
00:38:11.880
of our body's physiology and give us a readiness.
link |
00:38:15.780
So it should come as no surprise
link |
00:38:16.940
that dopamine and epinephrine,
link |
00:38:19.580
AKA adrenaline, hang out together.
link |
00:38:22.300
In fact, epinephrine and adrenaline
link |
00:38:24.640
are actually manufactured from dopamine.
link |
00:38:28.120
There's a biochemical pathway involving dopamine,
link |
00:38:30.540
which is a beautiful pathway.
link |
00:38:32.180
If ever you want to look it up,
link |
00:38:33.700
you could just look up biochemistry of dopamine.
link |
00:38:36.120
But what you'll find is that L-DOPA
link |
00:38:39.140
is converted into dopamine.
link |
00:38:43.180
Dopamine is converted into noradrenaline,
link |
00:38:47.200
nor epinephrine, it's also called,
link |
00:38:49.500
and noradrenaline, norepinephrine
link |
00:38:51.940
is converted into adrenaline.
link |
00:38:54.460
So not only are dopamine and epinephrine,
link |
00:38:57.780
AKA adrenaline, close cousins,
link |
00:39:00.020
they are actually family members, okay?
link |
00:39:02.540
They're closely related.
link |
00:39:04.060
I'm not going to get too deep into epinephrine today.
link |
00:39:06.260
I'm not going to talk too much about those pathways,
link |
00:39:08.380
but anytime I'm talking about dopaminergic transmission
link |
00:39:11.020
or that you have a peak in dopamine,
link |
00:39:13.040
inevitably that means that you have a peak
link |
00:39:15.100
in release of epinephrine as well.
link |
00:39:17.660
What dopamine does is dopamine really colors
link |
00:39:21.560
the subjective experience of an activity
link |
00:39:24.340
to make it more pleasureful,
link |
00:39:26.340
to make it something that you want more of.
link |
00:39:28.580
Epinephrine is more about energy.
link |
00:39:30.780
Epinephrine alone can be fear, paralysis, trauma,
link |
00:39:35.780
not physical paralysis, but mental paralysis,
link |
00:39:38.660
frozen in fear or being traumatized or scared.
link |
00:39:43.020
But the addition of dopamine to that chemical cocktail,
link |
00:39:45.980
if dopamine was released in the brain,
link |
00:39:48.380
well then that epinephrine becomes one of excitement.
link |
00:39:53.060
Okay, I'm using a broad brush here,
link |
00:39:54.860
but essentially what you need to know
link |
00:39:56.320
is that dopamine and epinephrine, AKA adrenaline,
link |
00:39:59.900
are family members and they tend to work together
link |
00:40:01.940
like a little gang to make you seek out certain things.
link |
00:40:06.020
So what sorts of activities,
link |
00:40:08.100
what sorts of things increase dopamine
link |
00:40:11.200
and how much do they increase dopamine?
link |
00:40:14.000
Well, let's take a look at some typical things
link |
00:40:17.700
that people do out there or ingest out there
link |
00:40:21.340
that are known to increase dopamine.
link |
00:40:23.860
So let's recall that you have a baseline level of dopamine
link |
00:40:26.580
and that everybody does.
link |
00:40:28.200
And even within a family, you might have family members
link |
00:40:30.540
who are very excitable, happy and motivated
link |
00:40:33.140
and others who are less excitable, happy and motivated.
link |
00:40:36.080
But your level of dopamine has everything to do
link |
00:40:40.660
with those genetics, but also with what you've experienced
link |
00:40:43.620
in the previous days and the previous months and so on.
link |
00:40:48.180
When you do or ingest certain things,
link |
00:40:50.440
your levels of dopamine will rise above baseline,
link |
00:40:53.500
transiently and depending on what you do or ingest,
link |
00:40:57.980
it will rise either more or less
link |
00:41:00.780
and it will be very brief or it'll last a long time.
link |
00:41:03.700
So let's take a look at some of the typical things
link |
00:41:05.540
that people take and do and eat.
link |
00:41:08.820
Some are good for us, some are not good for us.
link |
00:41:12.300
And let's ask how much dopamine
link |
00:41:13.780
is increased above baseline.
link |
00:41:15.740
Now, of course, these are averages,
link |
00:41:16.940
but these are averages that have been measured
link |
00:41:19.100
in so-called micro dialysis studies in animals.
link |
00:41:21.860
So actually extracting from particular brain areas,
link |
00:41:24.020
how much dopamine is released or from measuring the serum,
link |
00:41:27.340
the circulating levels of dopamine in humans.
link |
00:41:32.060
Chocolate, they didn't look at milk versus dark chocolate,
link |
00:41:35.820
but chocolate will increase your baseline level
link |
00:41:38.940
of dopamine 1.5 times, okay?
link |
00:41:41.940
So it's a pretty substantial increase in dopamine.
link |
00:41:44.420
It's transient, it goes away after a few minutes
link |
00:41:48.000
or even a few seconds.
link |
00:41:50.300
I'll explain what determines the duration in a minute,
link |
00:41:53.300
but 1.5 times for chocolate.
link |
00:41:56.620
Sex, both the pursuit of sex and the act of sex
link |
00:42:02.300
increases dopamine two times.
link |
00:42:06.300
So it's a doubling above baseline.
link |
00:42:08.980
Now, of course, there's going to be variation there,
link |
00:42:11.300
but that's the average increase in baseline dopamine
link |
00:42:16.220
caused by sex.
link |
00:42:17.720
Later, I will talk about how the different aspects
link |
00:42:22.300
of the so-called arousal art,
link |
00:42:23.960
the different aspects of sex, believe it or not,
link |
00:42:25.920
have a differential impact on dopamine.
link |
00:42:28.900
But for now, as a general theme or activity,
link |
00:42:33.040
sex doubles the amount of dopamine circulating
link |
00:42:36.480
in your blood.
link |
00:42:39.080
Nicotine, in particular,
link |
00:42:41.200
nicotine that is smoked like cigarettes and so forth
link |
00:42:44.840
increases dopamine two and a half times above baseline.
link |
00:42:49.920
So there's a peak that goes up above baseline
link |
00:42:53.240
two and a half times higher.
link |
00:42:57.200
It is very short-lived.
link |
00:42:59.160
Anyone who's ever been a chain smoker
link |
00:43:01.480
or observed a chain smoker understands
link |
00:43:03.440
that the increase in dopamine from nicotine
link |
00:43:06.600
is very short-lived.
link |
00:43:09.840
Cocaine will increase the level of dopamine
link |
00:43:12.280
in the bloodstream two and a half times above baseline.
link |
00:43:16.640
And amphetamine, another drug that increases dopamine,
link |
00:43:21.320
will increase the amount of dopamine in the bloodstream
link |
00:43:25.000
10 times above baseline,
link |
00:43:27.420
a tremendous increase in dopamine.
link |
00:43:30.200
Exercise.
link |
00:43:31.760
Now, exercise will have a different impact
link |
00:43:34.440
on the levels of dopamine,
link |
00:43:35.660
depending on how much somebody
link |
00:43:37.480
subjectively enjoys that exercise.
link |
00:43:40.580
So if you're somebody who loves running,
link |
00:43:43.320
chances are it's going to increase your levels of dopamine
link |
00:43:47.720
two times above your baseline, not unlike sex.
link |
00:43:53.120
People who dislike exercise
link |
00:43:55.120
will achieve less dopamine increase
link |
00:43:57.520
or no increase in dopamine from exercise.
link |
00:44:01.000
And if you like other forms of exercise,
link |
00:44:02.560
like yoga or weightlifting or swimming or what have you,
link |
00:44:05.920
again, it's going to vary by your subjective experience
link |
00:44:08.320
of whether or not you enjoy that activity.
link |
00:44:11.360
This is important and it brings us back
link |
00:44:13.720
to something that we talked about earlier.
link |
00:44:15.280
Remember that mesocorticolimbic pathway?
link |
00:44:19.320
Well, the cortical part is important.
link |
00:44:21.560
The cortical part actually has a very specific part,
link |
00:44:25.220
which is your prefrontal cortex,
link |
00:44:26.980
the area of your forebrain
link |
00:44:28.880
that's involved in thinking and planning
link |
00:44:31.360
and involved in assigning a rational explanation
link |
00:44:35.460
to something and involved in assigning a subjective
link |
00:44:39.120
experience to something, all right?
link |
00:44:41.120
So for instance, the pen that I'm holding right now,
link |
00:44:43.240
it's one of these Pilot V5s.
link |
00:44:44.600
I love these Pilot V5s.
link |
00:44:45.720
They don't sponsor the podcast.
link |
00:44:46.680
I just happen to like them.
link |
00:44:47.520
I like the way that they write, how they feel.
link |
00:44:50.920
If I spent enough time thinking about or talking about it,
link |
00:44:53.280
I could probably get a dopamine increase
link |
00:44:54.700
just talking about this Pilot V5.
link |
00:44:56.240
And that's not because I have the propensity
link |
00:44:58.840
to release dopamine easily.
link |
00:45:00.280
It's that as we start to engage with something more and more
link |
00:45:03.520
and what we say about it and what we encourage ourselves
link |
00:45:06.920
to think about it has a profound impact
link |
00:45:09.960
on its rewarding or non-rewarding properties.
link |
00:45:13.280
Now it's not simply the case that you can lie to yourself
link |
00:45:15.760
and you can tell yourself, I love something.
link |
00:45:17.280
And when you don't really love it
link |
00:45:18.600
and it will increase dopamine.
link |
00:45:20.880
But what's been found over and over again
link |
00:45:22.760
is that if people journal about something
link |
00:45:24.560
or they practice some form of appreciation for something,
link |
00:45:27.780
or they think of some aspect of something that they enjoy,
link |
00:45:31.540
the amount of dopamine that that behavior will evoke
link |
00:45:35.580
tends to go up.
link |
00:45:37.160
So for people that hate exercise,
link |
00:45:38.680
you can think about some aspect of exercise
link |
00:45:41.560
that you really enjoy.
link |
00:45:42.640
However, I will caution you against saying to yourself,
link |
00:45:47.960
I hate exercise or I hate studying, or I hate this person,
link |
00:45:52.680
but I love the reward I give myself afterward.
link |
00:45:55.920
Later, we're going to talk about how rewards
link |
00:45:58.120
given afterward actually make the situation worse.
link |
00:46:01.640
They won't make you like exercise more or studying more.
link |
00:46:04.600
They actually will undermine the dopamine release
link |
00:46:07.080
that would otherwise occur for that activity.
link |
00:46:09.440
So certain things, chemicals have a universal effect.
link |
00:46:13.580
They make everybody's dopamine go up.
link |
00:46:16.040
So some people like chocolate,
link |
00:46:17.540
some people don't of course,
link |
00:46:19.360
but in general it causes this increase in dopamine.
link |
00:46:22.860
But sex, nicotine, cocaine, amphetamine,
link |
00:46:25.920
those things cause increases in dopamine
link |
00:46:28.040
in everybody that takes them.
link |
00:46:30.920
Things like exercise, studying, hard work,
link |
00:46:33.400
working through a challenge in a relationship
link |
00:46:35.320
or working through something hard of any kind,
link |
00:46:38.120
that is going to be subjective
link |
00:46:40.320
as to how much dopamine will be released.
link |
00:46:42.760
And we will return to that subjective component
link |
00:46:45.320
in a little bit.
link |
00:46:46.800
But now you have a sense of how much dopamine can be evoked
link |
00:46:51.800
by different activities and by different substances.
link |
00:46:54.960
One that you might be wondering about is caffeine.
link |
00:46:57.440
I'm certainly drinking my caffeine today
link |
00:46:59.320
and I do enjoy caffeine in limited quantities.
link |
00:47:03.500
I drink yerba mate and I drink coffee and I love it.
link |
00:47:08.420
Does it increase dopamine?
link |
00:47:10.100
Well, a little bit.
link |
00:47:11.820
Caffeine will increase dopamine to some extent,
link |
00:47:14.400
but it is pretty modest compared to the other things
link |
00:47:17.580
that I described, chocolate, sex, nicotine,
link |
00:47:19.840
cocaine, amphetamine, and so on.
link |
00:47:22.560
However, there's a really interesting paper published
link |
00:47:25.760
in 2015, this is Volkow et al,
link |
00:47:28.520
you can look it up, it's very easy to find,
link |
00:47:30.560
that showed that regular ingestion of caffeine,
link |
00:47:33.600
whether or not it's from coffee or otherwise,
link |
00:47:36.120
increases upregulation of certain dopamine receptors.
link |
00:47:40.940
So caffeine actually makes you able to experience
link |
00:47:46.160
more of dopamine's effects.
link |
00:47:47.920
Because as I mentioned before,
link |
00:47:49.080
dopamine is vomited out into the synapse
link |
00:47:51.280
or it's released volumetrically,
link |
00:47:52.480
but then it has to bind someplace
link |
00:47:53.960
and trigger those G protein coupled receptors.
link |
00:47:56.840
And caffeine increases the number,
link |
00:47:59.720
the density of those G protein coupled receptors.
link |
00:48:03.400
Now, sitting back and thinking about that,
link |
00:48:06.020
you might think, oh yeah, you know,
link |
00:48:07.400
sometimes I'll notice people, at least in the old days,
link |
00:48:10.140
that it used to be a cigarette and a cup of coffee,
link |
00:48:13.120
or when people drink alcohol, oftentimes they'll smoke.
link |
00:48:16.280
And it's well known that different compounds
link |
00:48:18.980
like alcohol and nicotine or caffeine and nicotine
link |
00:48:23.020
or certain behaviors and certain drugs
link |
00:48:25.680
can synergize to give bigger dopamine increases.
link |
00:48:28.760
And this is not terribly uncommon.
link |
00:48:30.600
There are a lot of people nowadays who, for instance,
link |
00:48:32.840
take pre-workout energy drinks.
link |
00:48:34.760
They'll drink, I won't name names,
link |
00:48:36.420
but they'll drink a canned energy drink
link |
00:48:38.640
or they'll drink a pre-workout
link |
00:48:40.500
and they'll try and get that big stimulation,
link |
00:48:42.920
that stimulant effect for the dopamine, the norepinephrine,
link |
00:48:45.960
that family of molecules that works together
link |
00:48:47.680
to make you motivated.
link |
00:48:48.680
And then they'll also exercise to try and get even more
link |
00:48:51.720
of a dopaminergic experience out of that workout.
link |
00:48:54.940
Sometimes it's also to perform better as well, of course.
link |
00:48:59.080
But as we'll talk about in a few minutes,
link |
00:49:01.840
that aspect or that approach, rather,
link |
00:49:04.160
of trying to just get your dopamine
link |
00:49:05.520
as high as you possibly can
link |
00:49:07.040
in order to get the most out of an experience
link |
00:49:09.540
turns out to not be the best approach.
link |
00:49:11.820
And what you'll find as we talk about dopamine schedules
link |
00:49:16.000
is that layering together multiple things,
link |
00:49:19.640
substances and activities that lead to big increases
link |
00:49:23.100
in dopamine actually can create pretty severe issues
link |
00:49:26.980
with motivation and energy right after those experiences
link |
00:49:30.440
and even a couple of days later.
link |
00:49:32.160
So I'm not saying that people shouldn't take
link |
00:49:33.960
the occasional pre-workout if that's your thing
link |
00:49:35.800
or drink a cup of coffee or two before working out.
link |
00:49:38.560
Now and again, some people really enjoy that.
link |
00:49:40.680
I certainly do that every once in a while.
link |
00:49:42.720
But if you do it too often,
link |
00:49:44.240
what you'll find is that your capacity to release dopamine
link |
00:49:48.360
and your level of motivation and drive and energy overall
link |
00:49:51.480
will take a serious hit.
link |
00:49:53.360
Now I've been alluding to this dopamine peaks
link |
00:49:55.760
versus dopamine baseline thing
link |
00:49:57.480
since the beginning of the episode,
link |
00:49:58.940
talked about tonic and phasic release and so forth.
link |
00:50:01.960
But now let's really drill into what this means
link |
00:50:04.280
and how to leverage it for our own purposes.
link |
00:50:07.960
In order to do that, let's take a step back and ask,
link |
00:50:10.200
why would we have a dopamine system like this?
link |
00:50:12.960
Why would we have a dopamine system at all?
link |
00:50:15.100
Well, we have to remember what our species
link |
00:50:19.060
primary interest is.
link |
00:50:20.900
Our species like all species has a main interest
link |
00:50:24.980
and that's to make more of itself.
link |
00:50:26.740
It's not just about sex and reproduction,
link |
00:50:28.560
it's about foraging for resources.
link |
00:50:31.300
Resources can be food, it can be water, it can be salt,
link |
00:50:34.720
can be shelter, can be social connection.
link |
00:50:39.040
Dopamine is the universal currency of foraging and seeking.
link |
00:50:44.040
We call sometimes talk about motivation and craving,
link |
00:50:46.780
but what we mean in the evolutionary adaptive context,
link |
00:50:49.600
what we mean is foraging and seeking,
link |
00:50:51.160
seeking water, seeking food, seeking mates,
link |
00:50:54.780
seeking things that make us feel good and avoiding things
link |
00:50:57.320
that don't make us feel good,
link |
00:50:58.280
but in particular seeking things
link |
00:51:00.040
that will provide sustenance and pleasure in the short term
link |
00:51:03.800
and will extend the species in the longterm.
link |
00:51:07.360
Once we understand that dopamine
link |
00:51:09.080
is a driver for us to seek things,
link |
00:51:12.240
it makes perfect sense as to why
link |
00:51:14.240
it would have a baseline level and it would have peaks
link |
00:51:17.400
and that the baseline and peaks would be related
link |
00:51:19.880
in some sort of direct way.
link |
00:51:21.920
Here's what I mean by that.
link |
00:51:23.800
Let's say that you were not alive now,
link |
00:51:26.080
but you were alive 10,000 years ago
link |
00:51:28.920
and you woke up and you looked and you realized
link |
00:51:31.640
you had minimal water and you had minimal food left.
link |
00:51:36.120
Maybe you have a child, maybe you have a partner,
link |
00:51:38.560
maybe you're in an entire village,
link |
00:51:39.960
but you realize that you need things, okay?
link |
00:51:45.040
You need to be able to generate the energy
link |
00:51:47.240
to go seek those things.
link |
00:51:49.040
And chances are there were dangers in seeking those things.
link |
00:51:52.120
Yes, it could be saber-toothed tigers
link |
00:51:53.880
and things of that sort, but there are other dangers too.
link |
00:51:56.840
There's the danger of a cut to your skin
link |
00:51:58.460
that could lead to infection.
link |
00:51:59.480
There's the danger of storms.
link |
00:52:00.760
There's the danger of cold.
link |
00:52:01.880
There's the danger of leaving your loved ones behind.
link |
00:52:04.680
So you go out and forage, right?
link |
00:52:07.480
You could be hunting, you could be gathering,
link |
00:52:08.920
or you could be doing both.
link |
00:52:10.920
The going out and foraging process was, we are certain,
link |
00:52:15.660
driven by dopamine.
link |
00:52:16.980
I mean, there's no fossil record of the brain,
link |
00:52:18.720
but these circuits have existed, we know,
link |
00:52:20.600
for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands
link |
00:52:23.500
of years, and they are present in every animal,
link |
00:52:26.120
not just mammals, but even in little worms like c. elegans,
link |
00:52:28.880
the same process is mediated by dopamine.
link |
00:52:32.280
So dopamine drives you to go out and look for things.
link |
00:52:35.100
And then let's say you find a couple of berries
link |
00:52:37.500
and these ones are rotten, these ones are good.
link |
00:52:39.500
Maybe you hunt an animal and kill it,
link |
00:52:41.640
or you find an animal that was recently killed
link |
00:52:43.680
and you decide to take the meat.
link |
00:52:46.280
You are going to achieve, or I should say,
link |
00:52:48.720
experience some sort of dopamine release.
link |
00:52:51.560
You found the reward, that's great,
link |
00:52:53.980
but then it needs to return to some lower level.
link |
00:52:57.480
Why?
link |
00:52:58.320
Well, because if you just stayed there,
link |
00:53:00.380
you would never continue to forage for more.
link |
00:53:03.560
It doesn't just increase your baseline and then stay there.
link |
00:53:06.720
It goes back down.
link |
00:53:08.240
And what's very important to understand
link |
00:53:09.860
is that it doesn't just go back down
link |
00:53:11.460
to the level it was before.
link |
00:53:13.520
It goes down to a level below what it was
link |
00:53:16.720
before you went out seeking that thing.
link |
00:53:19.020
Now, this is counterintuitive.
link |
00:53:20.960
We often think, oh, okay, I'm going to pursue the win.
link |
00:53:23.800
All right, let's move this to modern day.
link |
00:53:26.420
I'm going to run this marathon.
link |
00:53:28.520
I'm going to train for this marathon.
link |
00:53:29.680
Then you run the marathon and you finish,
link |
00:53:32.200
you cross the finish line, you feel great.
link |
00:53:34.440
And you would think, okay, now I'm set
link |
00:53:36.080
for the entire year.
link |
00:53:37.200
I'm going to feel so much better.
link |
00:53:38.200
I'm going to feel this accomplishment in my body.
link |
00:53:40.120
It's going to be so great, but that's not what happens.
link |
00:53:42.900
You might feel some of those things,
link |
00:53:44.320
but your level of dopamine
link |
00:53:45.880
has actually dropped below baseline.
link |
00:53:48.440
Now, eventually it will ratchet back up,
link |
00:53:51.320
but two things are really important.
link |
00:53:52.700
First of all, the extent to which it drops below baseline
link |
00:53:55.800
is proportional to how high the peak was.
link |
00:53:59.020
So if you cross the finish line pretty happy,
link |
00:54:02.720
it won't drop that much below baseline afterward.
link |
00:54:06.000
If you cross the finish line ecstatic,
link |
00:54:08.940
well, a day or two later,
link |
00:54:10.120
you're going to feel quite a bit lower
link |
00:54:12.360
than you would otherwise.
link |
00:54:13.360
You might not be depressed
link |
00:54:14.480
because it depends on where that baseline was to begin with.
link |
00:54:17.180
But the so-called postpartum depression
link |
00:54:19.060
that people experience after giving birth
link |
00:54:22.680
or after some big win, a graduation,
link |
00:54:25.640
or any kind of celebration,
link |
00:54:27.620
that postpartum drop in mood and affect and motivation
link |
00:54:32.280
is the drop in baseline dopamine.
link |
00:54:35.040
This is very important to understand
link |
00:54:36.380
because this happens on very rapid timescales
link |
00:54:38.760
and it can last quite a long time.
link |
00:54:41.500
It also explains the behavior
link |
00:54:44.620
that most of us are familiar with,
link |
00:54:46.100
of engaging in something that we really enjoy,
link |
00:54:48.240
going to a restaurant that we absolutely love
link |
00:54:51.060
or engaging in some way with some person
link |
00:54:53.140
that we really, really enjoy.
link |
00:54:55.220
But if we continue to engage in that behavior
link |
00:54:57.300
over and over again, it kind of loses its edge.
link |
00:55:01.200
It starts to kind of feel less exciting to us.
link |
00:55:06.240
Some of us experience that drop in excitement
link |
00:55:10.100
more quickly and more severely than others,
link |
00:55:12.860
but everyone experiences that to some extent.
link |
00:55:16.360
And this has direct roots
link |
00:55:18.860
in these evolutionarily conserved circuits.
link |
00:55:22.180
Some of you may be hearing this and think,
link |
00:55:23.700
no, no, no, that's not how it works for me.
link |
00:55:25.500
I'm just riding higher and higher all the time.
link |
00:55:27.540
I love my kids, I love my job, I love school,
link |
00:55:30.200
I love wins, I don't want losses.
link |
00:55:33.020
I agree.
link |
00:55:35.300
We all feel good when we are achieving things,
link |
00:55:37.460
but oftentimes we are feeling good
link |
00:55:40.120
because we are layering in different aspects of life,
link |
00:55:43.860
consuming things and doing things that increase our dopamine.
link |
00:55:46.460
We're getting those peaks.
link |
00:55:48.240
But afterward, the drop in baseline occurs
link |
00:55:52.700
and it always takes a little while
link |
00:55:54.700
to get back to our stable baseline.
link |
00:55:58.160
We really all have a sort of dopamine set point.
link |
00:56:01.540
And if we continue to indulge in the same behaviors
link |
00:56:04.780
or even different behaviors that increase our dopamine
link |
00:56:07.420
in these big peaks over and over and over again,
link |
00:56:10.020
we won't experience the same level of joy
link |
00:56:12.560
from those behaviors or from anything at all.
link |
00:56:16.340
Now that has a name, it's called addiction,
link |
00:56:18.580
but even for people who aren't addicted,
link |
00:56:21.980
even for people who don't have an attachment
link |
00:56:23.980
to any specific substance or behavior,
link |
00:56:26.360
this drop in below baseline after any peak in dopamine
link |
00:56:30.180
is substantial and it governs whether or not
link |
00:56:33.260
we are going to feel motivated
link |
00:56:34.340
to continue to pursue other things.
link |
00:56:36.960
Fortunately, there's a way to work with this
link |
00:56:39.900
such that we can constantly stay motivated,
link |
00:56:42.120
but also keep that baseline of dopamine
link |
00:56:44.440
at an appropriate healthy level.
link |
00:56:46.380
A previous guest on the Huberman Lab podcast
link |
00:56:48.700
was Dr. Anna Lemke.
link |
00:56:49.880
She's head of the Addiction Dual Diagnosis Clinic
link |
00:56:52.660
at Stanford, has this amazing book,
link |
00:56:54.540
''Dopamine Nation, Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence.''
link |
00:56:58.020
If you haven't read the book,
link |
00:56:59.060
I highly encourage you to check it out, it's fantastic.
link |
00:57:02.000
The other terrific book about dopamine
link |
00:57:03.980
is ''The Molecule of More,''
link |
00:57:05.520
which is similar in some regard,
link |
00:57:07.980
but isn't so much about addiction,
link |
00:57:09.440
it's more about other types of behaviors.
link |
00:57:11.820
Both books really focus on these dopamine schedules
link |
00:57:15.500
and the relationship between these peaks
link |
00:57:17.140
and baselines of dopamine.
link |
00:57:20.360
In Dr. Lemke's book,
link |
00:57:21.480
and when she was on the Huberman Lab podcast,
link |
00:57:23.340
another podcast, she's talked about
link |
00:57:24.640
this pleasure-pain balance,
link |
00:57:26.020
that when we seek something that we really like
link |
00:57:28.780
or we indulge in it, like eating a little piece of chocolate
link |
00:57:31.180
if we really like chocolate, there's some pleasure,
link |
00:57:33.540
but then there's a little bit of pain
link |
00:57:37.080
that exceeds the amount of pleasure and it's subtle,
link |
00:57:40.220
and we experience it as wanting more of that thing.
link |
00:57:43.700
Okay, so there's a pleasure-pain balance,
link |
00:57:45.760
and I'm telling you that the pleasure and the pain
link |
00:57:48.620
are governed by dopamine to some extent.
link |
00:57:50.660
Well, how could that be, right?
link |
00:57:52.100
I said before, when you engage in an activity
link |
00:57:54.900
or when you ingest something that increases dopamine,
link |
00:57:57.580
the dopamine levels go up to a substantial degree
link |
00:58:00.300
with all the things I listed off.
link |
00:58:04.140
Where's the pain coming from?
link |
00:58:06.060
Well, the pain is coming from the lack of dopamine
link |
00:58:09.100
that follows, and you now know
link |
00:58:12.540
what that lack of dopamine reflects.
link |
00:58:15.940
How do you know?
link |
00:58:17.060
Well, earlier we were talking about
link |
00:58:18.660
how dopamine is released between neurons
link |
00:58:22.060
and I mentioned two ways, one is into the synapse
link |
00:58:24.460
where it can activate the postsynaptic neuron,
link |
00:58:26.720
and the other was what I called volumetric release
link |
00:58:28.760
where it is distributed more broadly,
link |
00:58:31.000
it's released out over a bunch of neurons.
link |
00:58:35.220
In both cases, it's released from these things
link |
00:58:37.960
we call synaptic vesicles, literally little bubbles,
link |
00:58:40.820
tiny, tiny little bubbles that contain dopamine,
link |
00:58:43.780
they get vomited out into the area or into the synapse.
link |
00:58:47.580
Well, those vesicles get depleted.
link |
00:58:52.080
For the synaptic physiologists out there,
link |
00:58:54.420
we call this the readily releasable pool of dopamine.
link |
00:58:58.900
We can only deploy dopamine that is ready to be deployed,
link |
00:59:03.100
that's packaged in those little vesicles and ready to go,
link |
00:59:05.440
it's like when you order a product
link |
00:59:07.220
and they say out of stock until two months from now,
link |
00:59:10.540
well, it's not ready to be released.
link |
00:59:12.300
Same thing with dopamine,
link |
00:59:13.220
there's a pool of dopamine that's synthesized
link |
00:59:16.420
and you can only release the dopamine
link |
00:59:20.020
that's been synthesized, it's the readily releasable pool.
link |
00:59:23.700
The pleasure pain balance doesn't only hinge
link |
00:59:27.000
on the readily releasable pool of dopamine,
link |
00:59:29.380
but a big part of the pleasure pain balance
link |
00:59:33.140
hinges on how much dopamine is there
link |
00:59:36.620
and how much is ready and capable
link |
00:59:38.680
of being released into the system.
link |
00:59:41.180
So now we've given some meat to this thing
link |
00:59:44.960
that we call the pleasure pain balance.
link |
00:59:47.220
And now it should make perfect sense
link |
00:59:49.680
why if you take something or do something
link |
00:59:52.620
that leads to huge increases in dopamine,
link |
00:59:55.760
afterward your baseline should drop
link |
00:59:58.220
because there isn't a lot of dopamine around
link |
01:00:00.980
to keep your baseline going.
link |
01:00:04.300
Fortunately, most people do not experience
link |
01:00:07.260
or pursue enormous increases in dopamine
link |
01:00:10.140
leading to these severe drops in baseline.
link |
01:00:12.340
Many people do, however, and that's what we call addiction.
link |
01:00:17.880
When somebody pursues a drug or an activity
link |
01:00:20.400
that leads to huge increases in dopamine,
link |
01:00:22.820
and now you understand that afterward
link |
01:00:24.300
the baseline of dopamine drops
link |
01:00:26.780
because of depletion of dopamine,
link |
01:00:28.660
the readily releasable pool,
link |
01:00:30.520
the dopamine is literally not around to be released
link |
01:00:33.300
and so people feel pretty lousy.
link |
01:00:35.620
And many people make the mistake of then going
link |
01:00:38.340
and pursuing the dopamine evoking,
link |
01:00:41.060
the dopamine releasing activity or substance.
link |
01:00:43.240
Again, thinking mistakenly
link |
01:00:46.300
that it's going to bring up their baseline.
link |
01:00:48.100
It's going to give them that peak again.
link |
01:00:50.340
Not only does it not give them a peak,
link |
01:00:52.020
their baseline gets lower and lower
link |
01:00:54.200
because they're depleting dopamine more and more and more.
link |
01:00:57.280
And we've seen this over and over again
link |
01:00:59.480
when people get addicted to something,
link |
01:01:01.660
then they're not achieving much pleasure at all.
link |
01:01:05.940
You can even see this with video games.
link |
01:01:08.260
People will play a video game, they love it.
link |
01:01:10.940
It's super exciting to them.
link |
01:01:12.700
And then they'll keep playing and playing and playing.
link |
01:01:15.200
And either one of two things happens, typically both.
link |
01:01:19.540
First of all, we say addiction is a progressive narrowing
link |
01:01:23.720
of the things that bring you pleasure.
link |
01:01:25.140
So oftentimes what will happen
link |
01:01:26.460
is the person only has excitement
link |
01:01:28.460
and can achieve dopamine release
link |
01:01:31.620
to the same extent doing that behavior
link |
01:01:33.700
and not other behaviors.
link |
01:01:35.140
And so they start losing interest in school,
link |
01:01:37.560
they start losing interest in relationships,
link |
01:01:39.900
they start losing interest in fitness and wellbeing
link |
01:01:42.320
and depletes their life.
link |
01:01:44.980
And eventually what typically happens
link |
01:01:47.460
is they will stop getting dopamine release
link |
01:01:50.220
from that activity as well.
link |
01:01:52.260
And then they drop into a pretty serious depression.
link |
01:01:55.120
And this can get very severe and people have committed
link |
01:01:57.300
suicide from these sorts of patterns of activity.
link |
01:02:01.700
But what about the more typical scenario?
link |
01:02:04.200
What about the scenario of somebody who is really good
link |
01:02:08.740
at working during the week,
link |
01:02:10.100
they exercise during the week, they drink on the weekends.
link |
01:02:13.680
Well, that person is only consuming alcohol
link |
01:02:16.220
maybe one or two nights a week,
link |
01:02:17.980
but oftentimes that same person will be spiking
link |
01:02:22.500
their dopamine with food during the middle of the week.
link |
01:02:25.340
Now we all have to eat and it's nice to eat foods
link |
01:02:27.500
that we enjoy.
link |
01:02:28.340
I certainly do that.
link |
01:02:29.460
I love food in fact,
link |
01:02:31.380
but let's say they're eating foods
link |
01:02:34.300
that really evoke a lot of dopamine release
link |
01:02:36.180
in the middle of the week,
link |
01:02:37.140
they're drinking one or two days on the weekend.
link |
01:02:39.760
They are one of these work hard, play hard types.
link |
01:02:42.560
So they're swimming a couple miles in the ocean
link |
01:02:45.340
in the middle of the week as well.
link |
01:02:48.140
They're going out dancing once on the weekend.
link |
01:02:49.920
Sounds like a pretty balanced life as I describe it.
link |
01:02:53.340
Well, here's the problem.
link |
01:02:56.060
The problem is that dopamine is not just evoked
link |
01:03:00.300
by one of these activities.
link |
01:03:01.520
Dopamine is evoked by all of these activities.
link |
01:03:04.300
And dopamine is one currency of craving motivation
link |
01:03:08.900
and desire and pleasure.
link |
01:03:11.220
There's only one currency.
link |
01:03:13.460
So even though, if you look at the activities,
link |
01:03:16.740
you'd say, well, it's just on the weekends
link |
01:03:18.500
or this thing is only a couple of times a week.
link |
01:03:21.340
If you looked at dopamine simply as a function,
link |
01:03:23.860
as a chemical function of peaks and baseline,
link |
01:03:26.940
it might make sense why this person after several years
link |
01:03:29.500
of work hard, play hard would say,
link |
01:03:32.020
yeah, you know, I'm feeling kind of burnt out.
link |
01:03:34.100
I'm just not feeling like I have the same energy
link |
01:03:35.840
that I did a few years ago.
link |
01:03:37.380
And of course there are age-related reasons
link |
01:03:39.280
why people can experience drops in energy,
link |
01:03:42.420
but oftentimes what's happening
link |
01:03:45.220
is not some sort of depletion in cellular metabolism
link |
01:03:48.100
that's related to aging.
link |
01:03:49.080
What's happening is they're spiking their dopamine
link |
01:03:51.420
through so many different activities throughout the week
link |
01:03:54.760
that their baseline is progressively dropping.
link |
01:03:57.220
And in this case, it can be very subtle.
link |
01:03:59.540
It can be very, very subtle.
link |
01:04:00.880
And that's actually a very sinister function of dopamine,
link |
01:04:06.340
we could say, which is that it can often drop
link |
01:04:08.860
in imperceptible ways,
link |
01:04:10.740
but then once it reaches a threshold of low dopamine,
link |
01:04:15.340
we just feel like, hmm,
link |
01:04:16.460
we can't really get pleasure from anything anymore.
link |
01:04:18.600
What used to work doesn't work anymore.
link |
01:04:20.460
So it starts to look a lot like the more severe addictions
link |
01:04:23.100
or the more acute addictions to things like cocaine
link |
01:04:25.980
and amphetamine, which lead to these big increases,
link |
01:04:28.380
these big spikes in dopamine,
link |
01:04:29.620
and then these very severe drops in the baseline.
link |
01:04:33.380
Now, of course, we all should engage in activities
link |
01:04:36.980
that we enjoy.
link |
01:04:38.240
I certainly do, everybody should.
link |
01:04:39.820
A huge part of life is pursuing activities
link |
01:04:42.180
and things that we enjoy.
link |
01:04:44.680
The key thing is to understand this relationship
link |
01:04:47.220
between the peaks and the baseline
link |
01:04:48.640
and to understand how they influence one another,
link |
01:04:50.940
because once you do that,
link |
01:04:52.300
you can start to make really good choices in the short run
link |
01:04:55.340
and in the long run
link |
01:04:56.500
to maintain your level of dopamine baseline,
link |
01:04:59.860
maybe even raise that level of dopamine baseline
link |
01:05:02.860
and still get those peaks
link |
01:05:04.780
and still achieve those feelings of elevated motivation,
link |
01:05:08.480
elevated desire and craving.
link |
01:05:10.000
Because again, those peaks
link |
01:05:12.820
and having a sufficiently healthy high level
link |
01:05:16.260
of dopamine baseline
link |
01:05:17.700
are what drove the evolution of our species
link |
01:05:19.380
and they're really what drive the evolution
link |
01:05:20.740
of anyone's life progression too.
link |
01:05:22.780
So they're a good thing.
link |
01:05:23.600
Dopamine is a good thing.
link |
01:05:25.380
Just very briefly, because it was also covered
link |
01:05:27.500
in the interview episode I did with Anna Lemke
link |
01:05:30.980
about addiction.
link |
01:05:32.480
Some of you might be asking,
link |
01:05:34.160
what should I do if I experience a drop
link |
01:05:36.620
in my baseline level of dopamine
link |
01:05:38.820
because of engagement with some activity
link |
01:05:41.620
or some substance that led to big peaks?
link |
01:05:45.200
Just to put some color and example on this,
link |
01:05:48.100
a few episodes ago,
link |
01:05:49.080
I talked about a friend who I've known a long time.
link |
01:05:52.380
So actually the child of a friend
link |
01:05:53.920
who has basically become addicted to video games.
link |
01:05:57.520
He decided actually,
link |
01:05:58.700
after seeing that episode with Anna
link |
01:06:00.200
to do a 30 day complete fast from phone,
link |
01:06:04.380
from video games and from social media of all kinds.
link |
01:06:07.420
He's now at day 29.
link |
01:06:08.900
He's really accomplished this.
link |
01:06:11.020
Not incidentally, his levels of concentration,
link |
01:06:13.380
his overall mood are up.
link |
01:06:14.540
He's doing far, far better.
link |
01:06:16.880
What he did is hard.
link |
01:06:18.100
In particular, the first 14 days is really hard.
link |
01:06:20.600
But the way that you replenish the releasable pool
link |
01:06:23.900
of dopamine is to not engage
link |
01:06:25.880
in these dopaminergic seeking behaviors.
link |
01:06:29.100
Because remember, typically people arrive
link |
01:06:31.460
at a place where they want to stop engaging
link |
01:06:33.380
in these behaviors or ingesting substances
link |
01:06:35.180
when that dopamine is depleted,
link |
01:06:37.140
when they're not getting the same lift.
link |
01:06:38.660
In his case, he was feeling depressed.
link |
01:06:40.240
He thought he had ADHD.
link |
01:06:41.540
They were starting to treat it as ADHD.
link |
01:06:44.420
And certainly there are people out there who have ADHD,
link |
01:06:47.140
but what he found was that his levels
link |
01:06:48.640
of concentration are back.
link |
01:06:49.660
He does not need to be treated for ADHD.
link |
01:06:52.700
And actually the psychiatrist wondered
link |
01:06:54.060
if he did prior to this video game, social media fast.
link |
01:06:58.020
He's feeling good.
link |
01:06:58.860
He's exercising again, not making this up.
link |
01:07:01.580
This is really a very specific,
link |
01:07:04.860
but very relevant example
link |
01:07:07.340
of how the dopamine system can replenish itself.
link |
01:07:10.660
Of course, if there's a clinical need for ADHD treatment,
link |
01:07:13.180
by all means pursue that.
link |
01:07:14.700
But I think a lot of ADHD does go misdiagnosed
link |
01:07:19.300
because of this depletion in dopamine that occurs
link |
01:07:21.900
because of overindulgence and other activities
link |
01:07:23.980
in the drop in baseline.
link |
01:07:25.660
So for anyone that's experienced a real drop in baseline
link |
01:07:28.700
who has addictive tendencies,
link |
01:07:31.180
whether or not their behaviors or substances,
link |
01:07:32.840
that is always going to be the path forward,
link |
01:07:36.980
is going to be either cold turkey
link |
01:07:38.900
or through some sort of tapering to limit interactions
link |
01:07:42.780
with what would otherwise be
link |
01:07:44.420
the dopamine evoking behavior or substance.
link |
01:07:47.380
So let's talk about the optimal way
link |
01:07:49.300
to engage in activities or to consume things
link |
01:07:54.160
that evoke dopamine.
link |
01:07:55.700
And by no means am I encouraging people
link |
01:07:57.300
to take drugs of abuse.
link |
01:07:58.360
I would not do that.
link |
01:07:59.300
I am not doing that.
link |
01:08:00.540
But some of the things on these lists
link |
01:08:03.180
of dopamine evoking activities
link |
01:08:05.260
are things like chocolate, coffee,
link |
01:08:08.260
even if it's indirect,
link |
01:08:10.900
sex and reproduction provided it's healthy,
link |
01:08:12.940
consensual, context appropriate,
link |
01:08:15.100
age appropriate, species appropriate, of course,
link |
01:08:17.460
is central to our evolution and progression as a species.
link |
01:08:21.820
So certain things like cocaine, amphetamine,
link |
01:08:24.760
I will put in the classification of bad.
link |
01:08:26.860
I'm willing to do that.
link |
01:08:27.700
And other things are part of life, food, exercise.
link |
01:08:31.180
If that evokes your dopamine,
link |
01:08:32.580
how are we supposed to engage
link |
01:08:33.840
with these dopamine evoking activities in ways
link |
01:08:37.020
that are healthy and beneficial for us?
link |
01:08:38.520
How do we achieve these peaks,
link |
01:08:40.240
which are so central to our wellbeing
link |
01:08:41.860
and experience of life without dropping our baseline?
link |
01:08:45.040
And the key lies in intermittent release of dopamine.
link |
01:08:50.260
The real key is to not expect
link |
01:08:54.300
or chase high levels of dopamine release
link |
01:08:57.060
every time we engage in these activities.
link |
01:09:01.820
Intermittent reward schedules are the central schedule
link |
01:09:05.180
by which casinos keep you gambling,
link |
01:09:08.780
the central schedule by which elusive partners
link |
01:09:12.360
or potential partners keep you texting and pursuing
link |
01:09:16.220
on either side of the relationship.
link |
01:09:18.700
Intermittent schedules are the way
link |
01:09:20.620
that the internet and social media
link |
01:09:23.520
and all highly engaging activities
link |
01:09:27.020
keep you motivated and pursuing.
link |
01:09:31.380
And we can take this back
link |
01:09:32.740
to our evolutionary adaptive scenario
link |
01:09:36.260
where you are out there looking for water, looking for food,
link |
01:09:40.000
not every trail, not every pursuit,
link |
01:09:42.820
not every hunch about where the animals will be,
link |
01:09:46.660
where the food will be, where the berries will be,
link |
01:09:49.780
not every single one of those played out.
link |
01:09:54.140
There's something called dopamine reward prediction error.
link |
01:09:56.560
When we expect something to happen,
link |
01:09:58.900
we are highly motivated to pursue it.
link |
01:10:01.860
If it happens, great, we get the reward.
link |
01:10:04.700
The reward comes in various chemical forms,
link |
01:10:06.640
including dopamine,
link |
01:10:08.140
and we are more likely to engage in that behavior again.
link |
01:10:11.020
This is the basis of casino gambling.
link |
01:10:13.560
This is how they keep you going back
link |
01:10:14.820
again and again and again,
link |
01:10:15.940
even though on average, the house really does win.
link |
01:10:20.700
You can transplant that example
link |
01:10:22.420
to any number of different pleasureful activities.
link |
01:10:24.660
If you're not a gambler and that doesn't appeal to you,
link |
01:10:27.140
I have to imagine there's something that appeals to you,
link |
01:10:29.340
something that you do repeatedly because you enjoy it.
link |
01:10:31.940
And almost inevitably,
link |
01:10:33.140
it's because there's an intermittent schedule.
link |
01:10:36.140
There's a intermittent schedule by which dopamine
link |
01:10:40.000
sometimes arrives, sometimes a little bit,
link |
01:10:42.100
sometimes a lot, sometimes a medium amount, okay?
link |
01:10:45.860
That intermittent reinforcement schedule
link |
01:10:48.220
is actually the best schedule to export to other activities.
link |
01:10:53.600
How do you do that?
link |
01:10:54.940
Well, first of all,
link |
01:10:57.220
if you are engaged in activities,
link |
01:10:59.460
school, sport, relationship, et cetera,
link |
01:11:01.760
where you experience a win,
link |
01:11:04.120
you should be very careful about allowing yourself
link |
01:11:06.820
to experience huge peaks in dopamine,
link |
01:11:09.100
unless you're willing to suffer the crash that follows
link |
01:11:13.380
and waiting a period of time for it to come back up.
link |
01:11:17.060
What would this look like in the practical sense?
link |
01:11:18.960
Well, let's say you are somebody
link |
01:11:20.200
who really does enjoy exercise,
link |
01:11:22.380
or let's say you're somebody who kind of likes exercise,
link |
01:11:24.640
but forces yourself to do it,
link |
01:11:26.260
but you make it pleasureful
link |
01:11:27.500
by giving yourself your favorite cup of coffee first,
link |
01:11:30.460
or maybe taking a pre-workout drink,
link |
01:11:32.500
or taking an energy drink,
link |
01:11:34.120
or listening to your favorite music,
link |
01:11:35.660
and then you're in the gym and you're listening to your music
link |
01:11:37.440
that all sounds great, right?
link |
01:11:39.080
Well, it is great, except that by layering together
link |
01:11:42.260
all these things to try and achieve that dopamine release,
link |
01:11:44.780
and by getting a big peak in dopamine,
link |
01:11:46.780
you're actually increasing the number of conditions required
link |
01:11:50.900
to achieve pleasure from that activity again.
link |
01:11:53.540
And so there is a form of this
link |
01:11:55.820
where sometimes you do all the things that you love
link |
01:11:58.180
to get the optimal workout.
link |
01:11:59.340
You listen to your favorite music,
link |
01:12:00.860
you go at your favorite time of day,
link |
01:12:02.620
you have your pre-workout drink if that's your thing,
link |
01:12:04.520
you do all the things that give you that best experience
link |
01:12:08.300
of the workout for you.
link |
01:12:11.320
But there's also a version of this
link |
01:12:12.620
where sometimes you don't do
link |
01:12:14.960
the dopamine-enhancing activities.
link |
01:12:17.180
You don't ingest anything to increase your dopamine.
link |
01:12:19.860
You just do the exercise.
link |
01:12:22.780
You don't do the exercise and expect dopamine to arrive
link |
01:12:27.380
through some what we call exogenous source as well.
link |
01:12:30.500
You might think, well, that sounds lame.
link |
01:12:31.860
I want to continue to enjoy exercising.
link |
01:12:34.980
Ah, but that's exactly the point.
link |
01:12:37.820
If you want to maintain motivation
link |
01:12:39.380
for school, exercise, relationships,
link |
01:12:41.260
or pursuits of any duration in kind,
link |
01:12:44.120
the key thing is to make sure that the peak in dopamine,
link |
01:12:47.720
if it's very high, doesn't occur too often.
link |
01:12:51.260
And if something does occur very often
link |
01:12:54.380
that you vary how much dopamine you experience
link |
01:12:57.860
with each engagement in that activity.
link |
01:13:00.260
Now, some activities naturally have
link |
01:13:02.500
this intermittent property woven into them, right?
link |
01:13:05.260
We sometimes have classes that we like
link |
01:13:07.940
and other classes we don't like.
link |
01:13:09.380
We don't always get straight A's.
link |
01:13:11.380
Sometimes we don't get rewarded
link |
01:13:13.000
with the outcome that we would like.
link |
01:13:14.740
We don't always have the perfect relationship outcome,
link |
01:13:17.980
but understand that your ability to experience motivation
link |
01:13:21.420
and pleasure for what comes next is dictated
link |
01:13:24.220
by how much motivation and pleasure
link |
01:13:25.940
and dopamine you experienced prior.
link |
01:13:28.260
The reason I can't give a very specific protocol
link |
01:13:32.420
like delete dopamine or lower dopamine every third time
link |
01:13:36.020
is that that wouldn't be intermittent.
link |
01:13:38.200
The whole basis of intermittent reinforcement
link |
01:13:40.700
is that you don't really have a specific schedule
link |
01:13:44.460
of when dopamine is going to be high
link |
01:13:46.580
and when dopamine is going to be low
link |
01:13:48.020
and when dopamine is going to be medium.
link |
01:13:49.840
That's a predictable schedule,
link |
01:13:51.320
not a random intermittent schedule.
link |
01:13:53.900
So do like the casinos do, certainly works for them.
link |
01:13:57.180
And for activities that you would like to continue
link |
01:13:59.980
to engage in over time, whatever those happen to be,
link |
01:14:03.960
start paying attention to the amount of dopamine
link |
01:14:07.100
and excitement and pleasure that you achieve with those
link |
01:14:09.340
and start modulating that somewhat at random.
link |
01:14:11.980
That might be removing some of the dopamine
link |
01:14:15.060
releasing chemicals that you might take prior.
link |
01:14:18.100
Maybe you remove them every time,
link |
01:14:21.020
but then every once in a while, you introduce them.
link |
01:14:23.540
Maybe it involves sometimes doing things socially
link |
01:14:27.460
that you enjoy doing socially,
link |
01:14:28.580
sometimes doing the same thing, but alone.
link |
01:14:31.880
There are a lot of different ways to do this.
link |
01:14:34.180
There are a lot of different ways to approach this,
link |
01:14:36.240
but now knowing what you know about peaks
link |
01:14:38.860
and baselines in dopamine and understanding
link |
01:14:41.660
how important it is not just to achieve peaks,
link |
01:14:43.940
but to maintain that baseline at a healthy level,
link |
01:14:46.380
it should be straightforward for you to implement
link |
01:14:48.500
these intermittent schedules.
link |
01:14:49.980
For those of you that are begging for more specificity,
link |
01:14:54.340
we can give you a tool.
link |
01:14:55.740
One would be you can flip a coin before engaging
link |
01:14:59.260
in any of these types of activities and decide
link |
01:15:01.520
whether or not you are going to allow
link |
01:15:04.100
other dopamine supportive elements to go, for instance,
link |
01:15:08.540
into the gym with you.
link |
01:15:09.540
Are you going to listen to music or not?
link |
01:15:10.980
If you enjoy listening to music, well then flip a coin.
link |
01:15:13.620
And if it comes up heads, bring the music in.
link |
01:15:15.380
If it comes up tails, don't.
link |
01:15:17.060
Okay, sounds like you're undercutting your own progress,
link |
01:15:19.940
but actually you are serving your own progress,
link |
01:15:23.040
both short-term and long-term by doing that.
link |
01:15:25.740
Now, the smartphone is a very interesting tool
link |
01:15:29.020
for dopamine in light of all this.
link |
01:15:31.980
It's extremely common nowadays to see people texting
link |
01:15:35.160
and doing selfies and communicating in various ways,
link |
01:15:39.180
listening to podcasts, listening to music,
link |
01:15:41.660
doing all sorts of things while they engage
link |
01:15:43.620
in other activities or going to dinner
link |
01:15:45.240
and texting other people or making plans,
link |
01:15:47.860
sharing information, that's all wonderful.
link |
01:15:49.660
It gives depth and richness and color to life.
link |
01:15:52.540
But it isn't just about our distracted nature
link |
01:15:56.900
when we're engaging with the phone.
link |
01:15:59.440
It's also a way of layering in dopamine.
link |
01:16:02.300
And it's no surprise that levels of depression
link |
01:16:06.660
and lack of motivation are really on the increase.
link |
01:16:11.180
Everything that we've talked about until now
link |
01:16:14.380
sets up an explanation or interpretation
link |
01:16:17.540
of why interacting with digital technology
link |
01:16:21.220
can potentially lead to disruptions
link |
01:16:23.420
or lowering in baseline levels of dopamine.
link |
01:16:28.860
I can use a personal example for this.
link |
01:16:30.620
I happen to really enjoy working out.
link |
01:16:32.220
I've always really enjoyed it.
link |
01:16:33.900
But in recent years, I noticed that if I was bringing
link |
01:16:38.020
my phone to my workouts,
link |
01:16:39.780
then not only was I a little bit more distracted
link |
01:16:41.980
and not focusing on what I was doing
link |
01:16:43.580
as much as I could have or should have,
link |
01:16:45.800
but also I started to lose interest in what I was doing.
link |
01:16:49.400
It wasn't as pleasureful.
link |
01:16:50.820
I would feel like it just didn't have the same kind of oomph
link |
01:16:53.680
and I was beginning to question my motivation.
link |
01:16:56.860
As I started learning more about this relationship
link |
01:16:59.620
between the peaks and the baselines and dopamine,
link |
01:17:02.020
what I realized was that some time ago
link |
01:17:04.380
I probably experienced a incredible increase
link |
01:17:07.560
in the amount of dopamine during one of my workouts
link |
01:17:09.900
because I enjoy working out and I enjoy listening to music.
link |
01:17:13.760
I also enjoy listening to podcasts.
link |
01:17:15.280
I also enjoy communicating with people.
link |
01:17:17.360
Those are all wonderful pursuits,
link |
01:17:18.700
but I had layered in too many of them too many times.
link |
01:17:22.540
And then it essentially wasn't working for me anymore.
link |
01:17:25.940
Much in the same way a drug wouldn't work for somebody
link |
01:17:28.140
who takes it repeatedly
link |
01:17:29.060
because their baseline of dopamine is dropping.
link |
01:17:31.520
So at least for this calendar year,
link |
01:17:33.860
I've made a rule for myself,
link |
01:17:35.380
which is I don't allow my phone into my workouts at all.
link |
01:17:40.400
No music, at least not from the phone.
link |
01:17:42.580
It can be in the room.
link |
01:17:43.680
I might listen to a podcast in the room,
link |
01:17:46.920
but I don't listen to anything
link |
01:17:49.060
or engage in anything on my phone, no texting whatsoever.
link |
01:17:51.440
And most of the time I just don't even bring it with me
link |
01:17:53.440
for that period of time.
link |
01:17:54.480
It's only a short period of time.
link |
01:17:56.340
I'm not training that often.
link |
01:17:59.840
This is something that I think has been misinterpreted
link |
01:18:03.940
as people can't be alone now.
link |
01:18:06.400
People talk about, oh, you know,
link |
01:18:07.880
they can't walk across the street
link |
01:18:10.180
or they can't go anywhere, ride the bus,
link |
01:18:13.320
can't be on the plane without being in contact.
link |
01:18:15.720
They can't handle just their thoughts.
link |
01:18:17.360
I don't think that's really what's going on.
link |
01:18:19.120
I think what's happened is that we achieved
link |
01:18:22.360
the great dopamine increase
link |
01:18:23.780
that comes from this incredible thing,
link |
01:18:25.520
which I personally enjoy being able to communicate by phone,
link |
01:18:29.120
by text and exchange pictures and send links
link |
01:18:31.380
and these kinds of things, social media.
link |
01:18:33.520
But then what happens is it doesn't have
link |
01:18:36.240
that same fulfilling aspect to it.
link |
01:18:38.620
And it tends to remove the excitement and the pleasure
link |
01:18:42.000
of the very activities that we are engaged in.
link |
01:18:44.640
So I know this is a hard one for many people,
link |
01:18:46.860
but I do invite you to try removing multiple sources
link |
01:18:51.580
of dopamine release or what used to be multiple sources
link |
01:18:54.800
of dopamine release from activities
link |
01:18:57.080
that you want to continue to enjoy
link |
01:18:58.940
or that you want to enjoy more.
link |
01:19:00.800
And now you understand the biological mechanisms
link |
01:19:03.000
that would underlie a statement like that.
link |
01:19:05.760
It takes a little bit of working with.
link |
01:19:07.800
I know it can be challenging in the first week or so
link |
01:19:10.800
of not engaging with the phone during any kind of workout.
link |
01:19:14.160
That actually was really tough,
link |
01:19:16.000
but now I'm back to a place where I enjoy it that much more.
link |
01:19:18.960
I also feel as if I conquered something
link |
01:19:20.560
in terms of the circuitry related to dopamine.
link |
01:19:23.280
I now understand why something that I enjoyed so much
link |
01:19:26.720
had become less pleasureful for me.
link |
01:19:29.400
And there's a deep, deep satisfaction
link |
01:19:31.560
that comes from understanding, okay,
link |
01:19:32.720
there wasn't anything wrong with me or what I was doing
link |
01:19:36.280
or anything at all.
link |
01:19:38.440
It was just, there was something wrong
link |
01:19:40.080
with the approach I was taking,
link |
01:19:41.360
which was layering in all these sources of dopamine
link |
01:19:43.640
and dropping my baseline.
link |
01:19:45.240
For this very same reason,
link |
01:19:46.600
I caution people against using stimulants
link |
01:19:49.660
every time they study or every time they work out
link |
01:19:54.880
or every time that they do anything
link |
01:19:57.380
that they would like to continue to enjoy
link |
01:19:59.040
and be motivated at.
link |
01:20:00.920
There's one exception, which is caffeine,
link |
01:20:02.660
because I mentioned before, if you like caffeine,
link |
01:20:06.680
that actually could be a good thing for your dopamine system
link |
01:20:08.660
because it does upregulate these D2, D3 receptors.
link |
01:20:11.760
So it actually makes whatever dopamine
link |
01:20:13.840
is released by that activity more accessible
link |
01:20:17.120
or more functional within the biochemistry
link |
01:20:19.880
and the pathways of your brain and body.
link |
01:20:23.480
However, a number of energy drinks
link |
01:20:25.880
and in particular pre-workouts contain things
link |
01:20:28.400
that are precursors to dopamine and on their own,
link |
01:20:31.640
even if you didn't engage in the activity,
link |
01:20:33.800
would cause the release of dopamine to a substantial degree.
link |
01:20:36.720
They do cause the release of dopamine
link |
01:20:38.480
to a substantial degree.
link |
01:20:40.200
And over time, that will deplete your dopamine.
link |
01:20:44.080
So energy drinks, pre-workout drinks,
link |
01:20:48.320
drugs of various kinds that people take to study
link |
01:20:51.280
and pay attention.
link |
01:20:52.120
We talked about some of these for the ADHD episode,
link |
01:20:54.040
things like Adderall, Ritalin, armodafinil, modafinil.
link |
01:20:58.280
Taken repeatedly over time will reduce
link |
01:21:01.920
the level of satisfaction and joy that you get
link |
01:21:04.200
from the activities you engage in while under the influence
link |
01:21:07.740
of those compounds.
link |
01:21:10.040
I'm not trying to demonize those compounds
link |
01:21:11.820
for their clinical use.
link |
01:21:13.020
What I'm saying is taking stimulants
link |
01:21:14.880
and then engaging in activities that you would like
link |
01:21:17.560
to continue to feel pleasureful is undercutting the process.
link |
01:21:20.920
And inevitably, it might not happen tomorrow,
link |
01:21:23.660
might not happen in a month,
link |
01:21:24.900
but inevitably you will have challenges
link |
01:21:27.120
with motivation and drive related to those activities.
link |
01:21:30.480
Now, some people can keep it right in check.
link |
01:21:32.240
They can just do the one can of the energy drink
link |
01:21:34.720
or they only do their pre-workout
link |
01:21:36.840
before really hard days, for instance.
link |
01:21:39.920
More power to you.
link |
01:21:42.400
I actually do that sometimes, frankly.
link |
01:21:44.740
But people who are trying to get into that peak,
link |
01:21:47.400
super motivated, driven, driven state,
link |
01:21:49.640
really focused every time they engage in an activity,
link |
01:21:52.880
you are absolutely undercutting the process
link |
01:21:55.200
and you are undermining your ability
link |
01:21:56.780
to stay motivated and focused.
link |
01:21:58.880
So just as we talked about intermittent reward schedules
link |
01:22:02.920
a moment ago, intermittent spiking of dopamine,
link |
01:22:07.160
if you do it at all, is definitely the way to go.
link |
01:22:10.280
And chronically trying to spike your dopamine
link |
01:22:13.000
in order to enhance your motivation, focus, and drive
link |
01:22:15.900
will absolutely undermine your motivation, focus,
link |
01:22:18.880
and drive in the long run.
link |
01:22:20.480
Ingestion of caffeine is somewhat of an exception
link |
01:22:24.760
among the other examples of things I've mentioned
link |
01:22:27.420
to avoid before what would otherwise be
link |
01:22:30.200
dopamine-increasing activities.
link |
01:22:32.240
Because again, caffeine can increase the density
link |
01:22:37.540
and the efficacy of these dopamine receptors.
link |
01:22:41.500
Turns out that the source of caffeine could also matter.
link |
01:22:45.140
While coffee or tea or other forms of caffeine
link |
01:22:48.880
will have this effect of increasing dopamine receptors,
link |
01:22:52.660
yerba mate, something I've talked about before
link |
01:22:55.380
on this podcast, has some interesting properties.
link |
01:22:58.160
First of all, it contains caffeine.
link |
01:22:59.920
It's also high in antioxidants.
link |
01:23:02.000
It also contains something called GLP-1,
link |
01:23:04.640
which is favorable for management of blood sugar levels.
link |
01:23:10.200
Yerba mate, it turns out, has also been shown
link |
01:23:13.000
to be neuroprotective specifically for dopaminergic neurons.
link |
01:23:17.960
Now, I should mention this is just a couple of studies,
link |
01:23:20.120
so we don't want to conclude too much from these studies.
link |
01:23:23.020
More needs to be done.
link |
01:23:24.460
But they showed that in a model of damage
link |
01:23:27.800
to dopamine neurons, ingestion of yerba mate
link |
01:23:31.120
and some of the compounds within yerba mate
link |
01:23:33.300
can actually serve to preserve the survival
link |
01:23:35.800
of dopamine neurons in both the movement-related pathway
link |
01:23:39.080
and the motivation pathway.
link |
01:23:41.240
So perhaps you need that incentive
link |
01:23:44.100
in order to ingest yerba mate tea.
link |
01:23:46.160
Perhaps you don't need any incentive.
link |
01:23:48.240
In my case, I don't need any incentive.
link |
01:23:49.740
I already enjoy yerba mate as my principal source of caffeine
link |
01:23:53.220
although I do drink coffee as well.
link |
01:23:55.120
But if one were going to consume caffeine,
link |
01:23:57.840
you might consider consuming that caffeine
link |
01:24:00.120
in the form of yerba mate,
link |
01:24:02.000
both for sake of upregulating dopamine receptors
link |
01:24:05.040
and getting more of a dopamine increase.
link |
01:24:07.800
And of course, for the stimulant properties of caffeine,
link |
01:24:10.400
if that's what you're seeking.
link |
01:24:12.520
And in addition to that,
link |
01:24:13.960
because yerba mate does appear to have
link |
01:24:16.760
some sort of neuroprotective
link |
01:24:18.520
and in particular dopamine neuron protective properties.
link |
01:24:22.100
Now that doesn't mean that caffeine is always beneficial.
link |
01:24:24.540
And actually there's one instance related to dopamine
link |
01:24:27.540
where caffeine can be particularly dangerous.
link |
01:24:30.760
This relates to MDMA, so-called ecstasy.
link |
01:24:33.340
MDMA is under investigation in various clinical trials
link |
01:24:37.460
for its potential to treat trauma and depression.
link |
01:24:41.900
It's also of course, a drug that's used recreationally.
link |
01:24:44.760
It's still illegal, at least in the United States.
link |
01:24:47.600
So whether or not MDMA is neurotoxic
link |
01:24:52.600
has been very controversial.
link |
01:24:53.820
Early on, it was thought that it is neurotoxic,
link |
01:24:56.240
that it can destroy serotonergic neurons.
link |
01:24:59.940
There were other papers that came out
link |
01:25:01.680
which argued that's not the case.
link |
01:25:04.520
And that's in particular because one of the early papers
link |
01:25:07.660
published in Science Magazine
link |
01:25:10.060
claiming that MDMA was neurotoxic,
link |
01:25:13.380
that paper was retracted.
link |
01:25:14.700
It turns out that that study had mistakenly used
link |
01:25:17.860
methamphetamine instead,
link |
01:25:19.500
and methamphetamine is known to be neurotoxic.
link |
01:25:23.420
I think most of the data point to the idea
link |
01:25:25.420
that MDMA might not be neurotoxic, but in any case,
link |
01:25:29.980
caffeine has been shown to increase
link |
01:25:32.260
the toxicity of MDMA receptors.
link |
01:25:34.580
And you might say, well, how could that be?
link |
01:25:36.420
Well, now you understand why that could be.
link |
01:25:39.420
Caffeine increases the density and efficacy
link |
01:25:42.460
of these dopamine receptors, the D2 and D3 receptors.
link |
01:25:45.260
MDMA is a potent drug for increasing concentrations
link |
01:25:50.420
of dopamine as well as serotonin and other neuromodulators.
link |
01:25:53.820
And it appears that caffeine ingestion
link |
01:25:56.100
by upregulating these receptors
link |
01:25:58.240
can lead to more toxicity of MDMA.
link |
01:26:02.420
So caffeine can be a beneficial substance in one context
link |
01:26:06.740
and actually can be a detrimental
link |
01:26:08.820
if not dangerous substance in another context.
link |
01:26:11.940
Two substances that greatly increase dopamine,
link |
01:26:14.660
namely amphetamine and cocaine,
link |
01:26:17.600
can cause long-term problems with the dopaminergic pathways.
link |
01:26:22.540
And this is largely based on a study
link |
01:26:24.800
that was published some years ago, 2003,
link |
01:26:27.840
but still holds a lot of merit.
link |
01:26:29.820
This is a paper published in
link |
01:26:31.380
Proscenes in the National Academy of Sciences,
link |
01:26:33.240
a very high tier stringent journal.
link |
01:26:36.940
First author is Kolb, K-O-L-B.
link |
01:26:38.900
And the title of the paper pretty much tells the story.
link |
01:26:42.400
Amphetamine or cocaine limits the ability
link |
01:26:45.120
of later experience to promote structural plasticity
link |
01:26:47.860
in the neocortex and nucleus accumbens.
link |
01:26:49.420
Neocortex is the outer shell of the brain, more or less,
link |
01:26:54.080
and the nucleus accumbens is part
link |
01:26:55.740
of that mesolimbic dopamine pathway
link |
01:26:58.500
for motivation, drive, and reinforcement.
link |
01:27:01.420
Neuroplasticity, of course,
link |
01:27:02.700
is the brain's ability to change
link |
01:27:04.180
in response to experience.
link |
01:27:05.220
And neuroplasticity is the basis of learning
link |
01:27:08.580
and memory and essentially remodeling
link |
01:27:12.140
of our neural circuitry in positive ways of all kinds.
link |
01:27:15.420
And this study was really one of the first to show
link |
01:27:18.780
that ingesting amphetamine and cocaine
link |
01:27:21.740
because of the high peak in dopamine that it creates
link |
01:27:26.160
and the low dopamine state,
link |
01:27:27.980
the baseline drop that it creates afterwards,
link |
01:27:31.740
limits plasticity and learning subsequent
link |
01:27:34.200
to taking amphetamine and cocaine.
link |
01:27:36.340
It was, at least in this study,
link |
01:27:38.500
shown to be a long-lasting effect.
link |
01:27:40.340
I doubt it's a permanent effect,
link |
01:27:41.860
but this should serve as a serious cautionary note
link |
01:27:45.260
that amphetamine and cocaine not only can cause a drop
link |
01:27:48.600
in baseline dopamine,
link |
01:27:49.620
but can actually put the brain into a state
link |
01:27:51.940
in which it cannot learn and modify itself to get better,
link |
01:27:55.280
at least for some period of time.
link |
01:27:57.300
In a previous episode on ADHD,
link |
01:28:00.220
I talked about the widespread use of drugs
link |
01:28:02.740
like Adderall, Ritalin, modafinil, and armodafinil,
link |
01:28:05.340
all of which lead to very large increases in dopamine
link |
01:28:07.860
and for people with ADHD can really improve their symptoms.
link |
01:28:12.700
But of course, there's a lot of non-prescription,
link |
01:28:15.300
non-clinical use of those compounds as well.
link |
01:28:17.980
And it stands to reason that the use of those substances
link |
01:28:21.220
to increase dopamine could very well provide
link |
01:28:24.980
the same sort of blockade of neuroplasticity
link |
01:28:27.140
that cocaine and amphetamine do,
link |
01:28:28.620
because when you look at the amount of dopamine increase
link |
01:28:31.960
that's triggered by those compounds, it's really comparable.
link |
01:28:35.320
So again, a cautionary note against spiking one's dopamine
link |
01:28:39.580
too much on a regular basis,
link |
01:28:41.540
unless there's a valid clinical need for doing that.
link |
01:28:45.500
So we've been focusing a lot for the last few minutes
link |
01:28:48.140
on the kind of darker side of dopamine
link |
01:28:50.860
and how getting big peaks in dopamine can be detrimental.
link |
01:28:54.540
But I want to acknowledge the truth,
link |
01:28:56.460
which is that dopamine feels great.
link |
01:28:59.060
Being in pursuit and motivated and craving things
link |
01:29:01.820
feels wonderful, and I don't want to demonize dopamine.
link |
01:29:05.400
What I'm trying to do today is to illustrate
link |
01:29:07.440
how dopamine works in your brain so that you can continue
link |
01:29:10.820
to engage in dopamine evoking activities.
link |
01:29:15.780
And certainly there is a place for ingesting things
link |
01:29:18.500
that can increase dopamine provided that they are safe
link |
01:29:21.060
for us in the short and long-term.
link |
01:29:25.280
There are activities that we can do that will give us
link |
01:29:28.900
healthy sustained increases in dopamine, both the peaks
link |
01:29:33.220
when they happen and to maintain or even increase
link |
01:29:36.220
our baseline levels of dopamine.
link |
01:29:37.720
So how do we do that?
link |
01:29:39.100
What are some of these activities?
link |
01:29:40.980
Well, in recent years, there's been a trend
link |
01:29:44.360
toward more people doing so-called cold exposure.
link |
01:29:47.620
In part, this was popularized by Wim Hof,
link |
01:29:51.120
the so-called Iceman, getting into cold showers,
link |
01:29:53.980
taking ice baths, exposing oneself to cold water
link |
01:29:57.360
of various kinds can in fact increase our levels
link |
01:30:00.980
of dopamine, as well as the neuromodulator,
link |
01:30:03.100
neuroepinephrine.
link |
01:30:05.500
This is not a new phenomenon.
link |
01:30:08.460
In the 1920s, a guy by the name of Vincent Priznitz
link |
01:30:12.060
was one of the first people to popularize
link |
01:30:14.580
and formalize cold water therapies.
link |
01:30:17.300
He was an advocate of cold water exposure
link |
01:30:20.620
in order to boost the immune system
link |
01:30:22.880
and increase feelings of wellbeing.
link |
01:30:24.560
And actually this practice dates back long before
link |
01:30:27.420
Vincent's popularized it.
link |
01:30:30.100
And Wim Hof is the more recent iteration of this.
link |
01:30:33.300
First of all, some of the safety parameters.
link |
01:30:35.220
Let's establish those first.
link |
01:30:36.600
Getting into very, very cold water, 30 degree Fahrenheit
link |
01:30:39.820
or even low 40 degree Fahrenheit can put somebody
link |
01:30:43.220
into a state of cold water shock.
link |
01:30:44.640
I mean, people can die doing that.
link |
01:30:46.460
So obviously you want to approach this with some caution,
link |
01:30:49.560
but for most people getting into 60 degree water
link |
01:30:52.940
or 50 degree water, or if you're acclimated
link |
01:30:55.680
and comfortable with it, you know,
link |
01:30:57.780
40 degree water or 45 degree water
link |
01:31:00.020
can have tremendously beneficial results
link |
01:31:03.300
on your neuromodulator systems, including dopamine.
link |
01:31:07.620
What temperature of water you can tolerate will depend
link |
01:31:10.700
on how cold water adapted you are and how familiar you are
link |
01:31:14.400
with the experience of getting into cold water.
link |
01:31:16.940
And when I say comfortable with, I should mention,
link |
01:31:19.840
there is never a case in which getting into cold water
link |
01:31:24.020
does not evoke a release of epinephrine.
link |
01:31:27.620
So the quickening of the breath, the widening of the eyes,
link |
01:31:29.820
the feeling as if you can't catch your breath
link |
01:31:32.900
and even some physical pain at the level of the skin,
link |
01:31:35.420
that happens almost every time or every time
link |
01:31:37.940
that you get into cold water,
link |
01:31:39.360
even if you're cold water adapted.
link |
01:31:41.140
What almost everybody knows and understands is that
link |
01:31:44.460
that wall, as I like to refer to it, is coming.
link |
01:31:47.020
That's always the first experience
link |
01:31:48.780
of getting into cold water.
link |
01:31:50.060
There's no real way around that.
link |
01:31:52.420
Now, the study that I mentioned earlier,
link |
01:31:55.340
human physiological responses to immersion
link |
01:31:57.580
into water of different temperatures,
link |
01:31:59.200
really interesting study that was done
link |
01:32:01.540
and published in the University of, excuse me,
link |
01:32:03.980
the European Journal of Applied Physiology.
link |
01:32:06.180
I can provide a link to that study in the show caption.
link |
01:32:09.700
It's a really interesting study.
link |
01:32:10.980
They looked at people getting exposed to water
link |
01:32:14.460
that was warm, moderately cold or very cold.
link |
01:32:16.780
It was 32 degrees Celsius, 20 degrees Celsius
link |
01:32:19.020
or 14 degrees Celsius.
link |
01:32:21.100
You can just put those online and do the conversion
link |
01:32:23.380
or you can do the conversion to Fahrenheit if you like.
link |
01:32:25.740
But in any case, what they looked at were the concentrations
link |
01:32:29.820
of things like epinephrine and dopamine and so on.
link |
01:32:34.120
And what they found was really interesting.
link |
01:32:36.340
First of all, upon getting into cold water,
link |
01:32:41.340
the changes in adrenaline and noradrenaline,
link |
01:32:46.580
epinephrine and norepinephrine were immediate and fast
link |
01:32:49.740
and these were huge increases.
link |
01:32:52.020
So that's the getting into the cold water
link |
01:32:53.820
that everybody experiences,
link |
01:32:55.160
these huge increases in adrenaline.
link |
01:32:57.300
But then what was interesting is they observed
link |
01:32:59.500
that dopamine levels started to rise somewhat slowly
link |
01:33:03.180
and then continue to rise and reach levels
link |
01:33:06.460
as high as 2.5 times above baseline.
link |
01:33:10.740
That's a remarkably high increase.
link |
01:33:12.760
Remember, if we go back to our examples of chocolate, sex,
link |
01:33:17.760
a doubling above baseline, nicotine,
link |
01:33:20.180
2.5 times above baseline, cocaine,
link |
01:33:23.000
the increase in dopamine from a cold water exposure
link |
01:33:27.060
of this kind was comparable to what one sees from cocaine,
link |
01:33:31.080
except in this case, it wasn't a rise and crash.
link |
01:33:36.580
It was actually a sustained rise in dopamine
link |
01:33:40.000
that took a very long time,
link |
01:33:41.620
up to three hours to come back down to baseline,
link |
01:33:44.280
which is really remarkable.
link |
01:33:46.060
And I think this explains some of the positive mental
link |
01:33:50.100
and physical effects that people report subjectively
link |
01:33:53.260
after doing cold water exposure.
link |
01:33:55.320
One question that many of you are probably asking is
link |
01:33:57.500
just how cold should the water be?
link |
01:33:59.940
Well, you could mimic what was done in this study
link |
01:34:01.660
and do 14 degrees Celsius,
link |
01:34:03.220
but for some people that won't be cold enough
link |
01:34:05.280
or some people that will be too cold,
link |
01:34:07.580
they did look at the release of stress hormones
link |
01:34:10.060
like cortisol in addition to the release
link |
01:34:11.820
of things like epinephrine and adrenaline.
link |
01:34:13.940
And it's interesting that they noted that in all cases,
link |
01:34:17.280
but especially at that coldest temperature,
link |
01:34:19.180
there was an increase in cortisol,
link |
01:34:20.660
but that it was transient that eventually people's cortisol,
link |
01:34:24.080
the stress hormone subsided a bit.
link |
01:34:26.780
There are basically two different approaches
link |
01:34:28.740
to remaining in the cold when it's uncomfortable.
link |
01:34:31.700
One is to try and relax yourself,
link |
01:34:34.200
to try and practice slow breathing,
link |
01:34:36.780
to try and dilate your gaze.
link |
01:34:38.220
I've talked about this before in previous podcasts,
link |
01:34:40.060
to go into panoramic vision,
link |
01:34:41.180
to essentially try and calm yourself
link |
01:34:42.980
so that it's not as stressful in the cold.
link |
01:34:46.660
Other people, however,
link |
01:34:48.660
take the approach of trying to ramp up their level
link |
01:34:51.540
of internal autonomic arousal,
link |
01:34:53.780
meaning to get really energized
link |
01:34:55.700
and kind of lean into the friction of the cold
link |
01:34:58.300
and they find that easier.
link |
01:34:59.740
Other people distract themselves.
link |
01:35:01.180
They recite the alphabet or they do something,
link |
01:35:04.100
anything to try and distract themselves
link |
01:35:06.100
from the discomfort.
link |
01:35:08.060
To be totally honest,
link |
01:35:09.060
it does not matter for sake of dopamine release
link |
01:35:12.020
because the dopamine release is triggered
link |
01:35:14.060
and then continues even after you get out of the cold water.
link |
01:35:17.900
Now, in this study, it was long exposure to cold water.
link |
01:35:22.380
It was an hour.
link |
01:35:23.960
That's a long period of time.
link |
01:35:25.580
And I do warn you against getting into cold water
link |
01:35:29.180
that's so cold that it will make your temperature drop
link |
01:35:32.160
and make you hyperthermic for an hour.
link |
01:35:33.800
That actually could be dangerous for a lot of people.
link |
01:35:35.500
You might have a hard time reheating
link |
01:35:36.960
and hypothermia is not a good thing.
link |
01:35:39.540
They had people monitoring subjects in these studies
link |
01:35:42.980
and paying attention to their core body temperature.
link |
01:35:45.220
They were able to reheat them afterwards.
link |
01:35:47.820
It's well-established now that getting into cold water,
link |
01:35:51.220
whether or not it's a shower, an ice bath,
link |
01:35:52.900
circulating cold water, a stream, et cetera,
link |
01:35:56.460
that can evoke the norepinephrine release immediately
link |
01:35:59.380
and the long arc of that dopamine release.
link |
01:36:01.580
Why would that be good?
link |
01:36:02.680
Up until now, I've basically said
link |
01:36:04.780
getting increases in dopamine
link |
01:36:06.940
are detrimental to your baseline.
link |
01:36:09.340
Well, this does appear to raise the baseline of dopamine
link |
01:36:12.380
for substantial periods of time.
link |
01:36:13.940
And most people report feeling a heightened level
link |
01:36:18.060
of calm and focus after getting out of cold water.
link |
01:36:22.060
So cold water exposure turns out to be
link |
01:36:23.680
a very potent stimulus for shifting the entire milieu,
link |
01:36:27.340
the entire environment of our brain and body
link |
01:36:30.520
and allowing many people to feel much, much better
link |
01:36:34.980
for a substantial period of time
link |
01:36:36.740
after getting out of the ice bath
link |
01:36:38.680
or cold water of any kind than they did before.
link |
01:36:42.140
Now you might ask how often to do this.
link |
01:36:44.340
Some people do this every day.
link |
01:36:45.980
It can be very stimulating.
link |
01:36:47.260
So typically doing it early in the day,
link |
01:36:49.980
it's going to be better.
link |
01:36:50.800
I don't necessarily recommend doing it right before sleep,
link |
01:36:53.700
but some people do it in the afternoon.
link |
01:36:55.580
And some people will indeed do that seven days a week,
link |
01:36:58.500
other people, three days a week,
link |
01:36:59.660
other people every once in a while.
link |
01:37:01.220
What I can say is once you become cold water adapted,
link |
01:37:05.300
once it no longer has the same impact of novelty
link |
01:37:09.120
and feeling a bit like a,
link |
01:37:10.900
I don't want to say a shock to your system
link |
01:37:12.220
because you don't want to go into cold water shock,
link |
01:37:13.740
but once it is comfortable for you,
link |
01:37:17.960
then it will no longer evoke this release.
link |
01:37:20.220
There really does seem to be something in the pathway
link |
01:37:22.340
from cold water exposure through the norepinephrine pathway
link |
01:37:25.460
and into the mesolimic brainstem
link |
01:37:27.240
that causes this release in dopamine.
link |
01:37:29.340
But nonetheless, it's a basically zero cost.
link |
01:37:32.560
I mean, you need access to water of some sort,
link |
01:37:34.380
cold water, shower, et cetera,
link |
01:37:35.580
but basically zero cost way of triggering
link |
01:37:38.160
a long lasting increase in dopamine
link |
01:37:39.860
without ingesting anything, no pharmacology whatsoever.
link |
01:37:42.780
Please again, approach it with safety and caution in mind,
link |
01:37:46.000
but it is a very potent stimulus.
link |
01:37:47.920
Again, 250% of a rise in baseline,
link |
01:37:51.740
two and a half times rise in baseline rivals that of cocaine,
link |
01:37:55.120
which is really remarkable.
link |
01:37:56.760
Now I'd like to talk about the positive aspects of rewards
link |
01:37:59.580
for our behavior
link |
01:38:00.420
and the negative aspects of rewards for our behavior.
link |
01:38:03.020
And from that, I will suggest a protocol
link |
01:38:06.060
by which you can achieve a better relationship
link |
01:38:09.180
to your activities and to your dopamine system.
link |
01:38:12.060
In fact, it will help tune up your dopamine system
link |
01:38:14.500
for discipline, hard work, and motivation.
link |
01:38:20.380
Hard work is hard.
link |
01:38:22.580
Generally, most people don't like working hard.
link |
01:38:26.000
Some people do,
link |
01:38:27.020
but most people work hard in order to achieve some end goal.
link |
01:38:32.720
End goals are terrific and rewards are terrific,
link |
01:38:34.900
whether or not they are monetary, social, or any kind.
link |
01:38:39.860
However, because of the way that dopamine
link |
01:38:43.460
relates to our perception of time,
link |
01:38:46.820
working hard at something
link |
01:38:49.060
for sake of a reward that comes afterward
link |
01:38:52.300
can make the hard work much more challenging
link |
01:38:55.700
and make us much less likely to lean into hard work
link |
01:38:58.840
in the future.
link |
01:38:59.820
Let me give you a couple examples
link |
01:39:01.600
by way of data and experiments.
link |
01:39:03.820
There's a classic experiment done actually at Stanford
link |
01:39:07.620
many years ago in which children in nursery school
link |
01:39:11.980
and kindergarten drew pictures.
link |
01:39:14.840
And they drew pictures because they liked to draw.
link |
01:39:17.680
The researchers took kids that liked to draw
link |
01:39:20.660
and they started giving them a reward for drawing.
link |
01:39:23.540
The reward generally was a gold star or some thing
link |
01:39:26.560
that a young child would find rewarding.
link |
01:39:30.200
Then they stopped giving them the gold star.
link |
01:39:33.480
And what they found is the children had
link |
01:39:36.100
a much lower tendency to draw on their own, no reward.
link |
01:39:42.120
Now, remember this was an activity
link |
01:39:44.300
that prior to receiving a reward,
link |
01:39:46.460
the children intrinsically enjoyed and selected to do.
link |
01:39:50.400
No one was telling them to draw.
link |
01:39:52.800
What this relates to is so-called intrinsic
link |
01:39:54.520
versus extrinsic reinforcement.
link |
01:39:57.260
When we receive rewards,
link |
01:39:58.800
even if we give ourselves rewards for something,
link |
01:40:01.980
we tend to associate less pleasure
link |
01:40:04.060
with the actual activity itself that evoked the reward.
link |
01:40:07.940
Now that might seem counterintuitive,
link |
01:40:09.420
but that's just the way
link |
01:40:10.660
that these dopaminergic circuits work.
link |
01:40:13.240
And now understanding these peaks and baselines
link |
01:40:15.620
and dopamine, which I won't review again,
link |
01:40:18.620
this should make sense.
link |
01:40:20.300
If you get a peak in dopamine from a reward,
link |
01:40:24.260
it's going to lower your baseline.
link |
01:40:25.740
And the cognitive interpretation is that you didn't really
link |
01:40:30.460
do the activity because you enjoyed the activity.
link |
01:40:32.760
You did it for the reward.
link |
01:40:34.420
Now, this doesn't mean all rewards of all kinds are bad,
link |
01:40:37.320
but it's also important to understand
link |
01:40:39.740
that dopamine controls our perception of time.
link |
01:40:42.780
When and how much dopamine we experience is the way
link |
01:40:46.900
that we carve up what we call our experience of time.
link |
01:40:50.540
When we engage in an activity,
link |
01:40:52.140
let's say school or hard work of any kind or exercise,
link |
01:40:56.960
because of the reward we are going to give ourselves
link |
01:40:59.420
or receive at the end, the trophy, the Sunday, the meal,
link |
01:41:03.860
whatever it happens to be,
link |
01:41:06.860
we actually are extending the time bin
link |
01:41:10.500
over which we are analyzing or perceiving that experience.
link |
01:41:15.500
And because the reward comes at the end,
link |
01:41:19.360
we start to dissociate the neural circuits
link |
01:41:22.820
for dopamine and reward that would have normally been active
link |
01:41:26.340
during the activity.
link |
01:41:28.580
And because it all arrives at the end over time,
link |
01:41:32.880
we have the experience of less and less pleasure
link |
01:41:35.820
from that particular activity while we're doing it.
link |
01:41:39.180
Now, this is the antithesis of growth mindset.
link |
01:41:43.100
My colleague at Stanford, Carol Dweck, as many of you know,
link |
01:41:45.780
has come up with this incredible theory and principle,
link |
01:41:49.040
and it actually goes beyond theory and principle
link |
01:41:50.900
called growth mindset,
link |
01:41:51.980
which is this striving to be better,
link |
01:41:54.140
to be in this mindset of I'm not there yet,
link |
01:41:56.740
but striving itself is the end goal.
link |
01:42:00.900
And that of course delivers you to tremendous performance
link |
01:42:03.220
has been observed over and over and over again,
link |
01:42:05.160
that people that have growth mindset,
link |
01:42:06.580
kids that have growth mindset end up performing very well
link |
01:42:09.420
because they're focused on the effort itself.
link |
01:42:11.660
And all of us can cultivate growth mindset.
link |
01:42:15.540
The neural mechanism of cultivating growth mindset
link |
01:42:18.140
involves learning to access the rewards
link |
01:42:21.620
from effort and doing, and that's hard to do
link |
01:42:26.220
because you have to engage this prefrontal component
link |
01:42:29.260
of the mesolimbic circuit.
link |
01:42:30.380
You have to tell yourself, okay, this effort is great.
link |
01:42:33.660
This effort is pleasureful,
link |
01:42:35.180
even though you might actually be in a state of physical
link |
01:42:37.180
pain from the exercise, or I can recall this from college,
link |
01:42:40.100
just feeling like I wanted to get up from my desk,
link |
01:42:42.240
but forcing myself to study,
link |
01:42:43.660
forcing myself and forcing myself.
link |
01:42:45.140
What you find over time is that you can start to associate
link |
01:42:48.420
a dopamine release.
link |
01:42:49.360
You can evoke dopamine release from the friction
link |
01:42:53.020
and the challenge that you happen to be in.
link |
01:42:55.820
You completely eliminate the ability to generate
link |
01:42:59.580
those circuits and the rewarding process
link |
01:43:02.340
of being able to reward friction while in effort,
link |
01:43:06.040
if you are focused only on the goal that comes at the end,
link |
01:43:09.540
because of the way that dopamine marks time.
link |
01:43:12.500
So if you say, oh, I'm going to do this very hard thing
link |
01:43:15.440
and I'm going to push and push and push and push
link |
01:43:17.340
for that end goal that comes later,
link |
01:43:20.260
not only do you enjoy the process of what you're doing less,
link |
01:43:24.980
you actually make it more painful
link |
01:43:27.060
while you're engaging in it.
link |
01:43:28.520
You make yourself less efficient at it
link |
01:43:30.260
because if you were able to access dopamine while in effort,
link |
01:43:33.500
dopamine has all these incredible properties of increasing
link |
01:43:36.160
the amount of energy in our body and in our mind,
link |
01:43:38.780
our ability to focus by way of dopamine's conversion
link |
01:43:41.540
into epinephrine, but also you are undermining your ability
link |
01:43:46.160
to lean back into that activity the next time.
link |
01:43:48.540
The next time you need twice as much coffee
link |
01:43:51.500
and three times as much loud music
link |
01:43:53.660
and four times as much energy drink
link |
01:43:55.700
and the social connection just to get out the door
link |
01:43:58.380
in order to do the run or to study.
link |
01:44:00.740
So what's more beneficial, in fact,
link |
01:44:04.260
can serve as a tremendous amplifier
link |
01:44:06.420
on all endeavors that you engage in,
link |
01:44:09.360
especially hard endeavors is to A,
link |
01:44:12.740
not start layering in other sources of dopamine
link |
01:44:15.660
in order to get to the starting line,
link |
01:44:17.500
not layering in other sources of dopamine
link |
01:44:19.960
in order to be able to continue,
link |
01:44:21.220
but rather to subjectively start to attach the feeling
link |
01:44:25.260
of friction and effort to an internally generated
link |
01:44:29.440
reward system and this is not meant to be vague.
link |
01:44:32.380
This is a system that exists in your mind
link |
01:44:35.140
that exists in the minds of humans
link |
01:44:37.000
for hundreds of thousands of years
link |
01:44:38.900
by which you're not just pursuing the things
link |
01:44:41.740
that are innately pleasureful, food, sex, warmth,
link |
01:44:46.060
water when you're thirsty,
link |
01:44:47.860
but the beauty of this mesolimbic reward pathway
link |
01:44:51.180
that I talked about earlier
link |
01:44:52.820
is that it includes the forebrain.
link |
01:44:54.380
So you can tell yourself the effort part is the good part.
link |
01:44:59.240
I know it's painful.
link |
01:45:00.080
I know this doesn't feel good, but I'm focused on this.
link |
01:45:02.400
I'm going to start to access the reward.
link |
01:45:04.960
You will find the rewards,
link |
01:45:07.380
meaning the dopamine release inside of effort.
link |
01:45:10.060
If you repeat this over and over again,
link |
01:45:12.040
and what's beautiful about it is that it starts
link |
01:45:14.300
to become reflexive for all types of effort.
link |
01:45:17.420
When we focus only on the trophy, only on the grade,
link |
01:45:20.280
only on the win as the reward,
link |
01:45:22.960
you undermine that entire process.
link |
01:45:25.520
So how do you do this?
link |
01:45:27.400
You do this in those moments of the most intense friction,
link |
01:45:31.420
you tell yourself this is very painful
link |
01:45:34.780
and because it's painful,
link |
01:45:36.900
it will evoke an increase in dopamine release later,
link |
01:45:40.580
meaning it will increase my baseline in dopamine.
link |
01:45:43.900
But you also have to tell yourself that in that moment,
link |
01:45:48.640
you are doing it by choice
link |
01:45:50.460
and you're doing it because you love it.
link |
01:45:53.640
And I know that sounds like lying to yourself.
link |
01:45:56.100
And in some ways it is lying to yourself,
link |
01:45:58.380
but it's lying to yourself in the context of a truth,
link |
01:46:01.260
which is that you want it to feel better.
link |
01:46:05.020
You want it to feel even pleasureful.
link |
01:46:07.780
Now, this is very far and away different
link |
01:46:10.820
from thinking about the reward that comes at the end,
link |
01:46:14.300
the hot fudge Sunday after you cross the finish line,
link |
01:46:17.020
and you can replace hot fudge Sunday
link |
01:46:18.340
with whatever reward happens to be appealing to you.
link |
01:46:21.980
We revere people who are capable
link |
01:46:23.660
of doing what I'm describing.
link |
01:46:25.800
David Goggins comes to mind as a really good example.
link |
01:46:28.060
Many of you are probably familiar with David Goggins,
link |
01:46:30.140
former Navy SEAL,
link |
01:46:31.460
who essentially has made a post-military career
link |
01:46:36.060
out of explaining and sharing his process
link |
01:46:39.820
of turning the effort into the reward.
link |
01:46:42.640
There are many other examples of this too, of course.
link |
01:46:46.820
Throughout evolutionary history,
link |
01:46:48.720
there's no question that we revered people
link |
01:46:50.580
who were willing to go out and forage and hunt and gather
link |
01:46:53.940
and caretake in ways that other members of our species
link |
01:46:58.580
probably found exhausting and probably would have preferred
link |
01:47:01.780
to just put their feet up or soak them in a cool stream
link |
01:47:04.020
rather than continue to forage.
link |
01:47:06.060
The ability to access this pleasure from effort
link |
01:47:10.860
aspect of our dopaminergic circuitry is without question
link |
01:47:14.980
the most powerful aspect of dopamine
link |
01:47:17.580
and our biology of dopamine.
link |
01:47:19.500
And the beautiful thing is it's accessible to all of us,
link |
01:47:23.020
but just to highlight the things that can interfere with
link |
01:47:25.940
and prevent you from getting dopamine release
link |
01:47:29.940
from effort itself.
link |
01:47:32.180
Don't spike dopamine prior to engaging in effort
link |
01:47:35.980
and don't spike dopamine after engaging in effort.
link |
01:47:39.460
Learn to spike your dopamine from effort itself.
link |
01:47:43.020
One straightforward example of learning to attach dopamine
link |
01:47:47.500
to effort and strain as opposed to a process or a reward
link |
01:47:52.680
that naturally evokes dopamine release
link |
01:47:55.300
is so-called intermittent fasting.
link |
01:47:57.140
I know this is very popular nowadays.
link |
01:47:59.540
Some people like to do intermittent fasting,
link |
01:48:01.180
some people don't.
link |
01:48:02.340
Some people have a 12 hour feeding window every 24 hours.
link |
01:48:05.220
Some people do long fasts of two to three days even.
link |
01:48:08.300
I personally don't monitor a feeding window
link |
01:48:11.580
with a lot of precision.
link |
01:48:12.700
I tend to skip one meal a day, either breakfast or lunch,
link |
01:48:15.420
and then I eat the other two meals of the day,
link |
01:48:16.860
depending on which meal I skip.
link |
01:48:18.140
So it's either breakfast, lunch,
link |
01:48:19.780
and maybe a little something in the evening,
link |
01:48:22.320
or I'll skip breakfast and do lunch and dinner and so on.
link |
01:48:25.740
Many people are now eating this way in part
link |
01:48:28.800
because many people find it easier to not eat at all
link |
01:48:32.940
than to eat a smaller portion of some food.
link |
01:48:36.020
And that has everything to do
link |
01:48:37.460
with the dopamine reward evoking properties of food.
link |
01:48:42.040
When we ingest food or when we are about to ingest food,
link |
01:48:45.980
our dopamine levels go up.
link |
01:48:47.200
And typically when we ingest food,
link |
01:48:49.340
if it evokes some dopamine release,
link |
01:48:51.020
then we tend to want even more food.
link |
01:48:52.680
Remember dopamine's main role
link |
01:48:54.700
is one of motivation and seeking.
link |
01:48:56.780
And what dopamine always wants more of is more dopamine,
link |
01:49:01.020
more activity or thing that evokes more dopamine release.
link |
01:49:05.180
Well, let's just look at fasting
link |
01:49:07.940
from the perspective of dopamine schedules
link |
01:49:10.860
and dopamine release and peaks and baselines.
link |
01:49:14.760
Typically when we eat, we get dopamine release,
link |
01:49:18.820
especially when we eat after being very hungry.
link |
01:49:21.540
If you've ever gone camping or you're very, very hungry,
link |
01:49:24.180
the food tastes that much better.
link |
01:49:26.060
And that's actually because of the way
link |
01:49:28.080
that deprivation states increase
link |
01:49:31.460
the way that dopaminergic circuits work.
link |
01:49:35.060
Our perception of dopamine is heightened
link |
01:49:38.540
when the receptors for dopamine
link |
01:49:40.320
have not seen much dopamine lately.
link |
01:49:42.420
They haven't bound much dopamine.
link |
01:49:43.860
So when you fast, fast, fast, fast, fast,
link |
01:49:45.740
and then you finally eat, it evokes more dopamine release.
link |
01:49:49.660
So this is the big reward that comes at the end.
link |
01:49:52.860
Even bigger because you deprived yourself.
link |
01:49:56.220
This is true for all rewarding behaviors
link |
01:49:58.420
and activities by the way.
link |
01:50:00.200
The longer you restrict yourself from that activity,
link |
01:50:02.940
the greater the dopamine experience
link |
01:50:05.300
when the dopamine is finally released
link |
01:50:06.820
because of an upregulation of the receptors for dopamine.
link |
01:50:10.820
But I just spent five minutes or more
link |
01:50:13.000
telling you that you should avoid too much reward at the end
link |
01:50:16.420
and you should actually focus on the dopamine
link |
01:50:20.020
that you can consciously evoke
link |
01:50:22.660
from the deprivation strain and effort.
link |
01:50:24.860
And in fact, this is what happens for many people
link |
01:50:28.060
that start doing fasting and take a liking to it.
link |
01:50:31.140
Many people say that their state of mind
link |
01:50:33.980
when they fast is clear,
link |
01:50:35.880
that they actually start to enjoy the period of fasting.
link |
01:50:39.060
In fact, some people start pushing out their eating window
link |
01:50:41.820
or skipping entire days of eating more and more
link |
01:50:44.220
in order to get deeper into that state of mind
link |
01:50:47.900
where surely it's not just dopamine,
link |
01:50:50.420
but dopamine is released.
link |
01:50:51.900
They will track their clock.
link |
01:50:53.340
Oh, I've been fasting 12 hours, 16 hours, et cetera.
link |
01:50:56.020
They are starting to attach dopamine release
link |
01:50:58.420
or create dopamine release from the deprivation,
link |
01:51:01.440
not from the food reward itself.
link |
01:51:03.740
And this, I think, makes it an interesting practice
link |
01:51:06.240
and one that certainly has been practiced for centuries
link |
01:51:10.220
in different cultures and different religions
link |
01:51:12.220
of deliberately restricting food,
link |
01:51:14.260
not just to increase the rewarding properties of food itself
link |
01:51:17.980
but also to increase the rewarding properties
link |
01:51:20.540
of deprivation.
link |
01:51:22.060
And I should emphasize that a lot of the subjective aspects
link |
01:51:25.060
of the knowledge of the benefits of fasting
link |
01:51:27.500
serve as reinforcing dopamine amplifying aspects to fasting.
link |
01:51:33.140
Meaning if somebody does intermittent fasting
link |
01:51:36.580
and they are deep into their fast
link |
01:51:38.360
and they're telling themselves,
link |
01:51:39.260
oh, my blood lipid profiles are probably improving
link |
01:51:41.860
and my glucose management is probably improving,
link |
01:51:44.460
my insulin sensitivity is going up
link |
01:51:46.260
and I'm going to live longer,
link |
01:51:47.180
all these things that have some basis from animal studies
link |
01:51:50.980
and some basis or not from human studies,
link |
01:51:53.740
it's all kind of still in emerging literature,
link |
01:51:55.760
but it does seem to be pointing in that direction
link |
01:51:57.620
that fasting can encourage things like autophagy,
link |
01:52:01.280
the engulfment of dead cells and things of that sort.
link |
01:52:04.500
Well, as people tell themselves these things,
link |
01:52:07.760
they are enhancing the rewarding properties
link |
01:52:10.940
of the behavior of fasting.
link |
01:52:12.860
And so this is a salient example
link |
01:52:14.980
of where knowledge of knowledge can actually help us
link |
01:52:18.820
change these deep primitive circuits related to dopamine.
link |
01:52:23.020
And this illustrates how the forebrain,
link |
01:52:25.440
which carries knowledge and carries interpretation
link |
01:52:28.260
and rational thought,
link |
01:52:29.540
can be used to shape the very circuits
link |
01:52:32.680
that are involved in generating reward
link |
01:52:35.260
for what would otherwise just be kind of
link |
01:52:36.820
primitive behaviors, hardwired behaviors.
link |
01:52:39.060
And that's the beauty of these dopamine circuits.
link |
01:52:41.340
That's the beauty of dopamine.
link |
01:52:42.540
It's not just attached to the more primitive behaviors
link |
01:52:46.060
of food, sex, heat, et cetera.
link |
01:52:49.480
It's also attached to the things that we decide
link |
01:52:52.420
are good for us and are important for us.
link |
01:52:54.660
So telling yourself that exercise or fasting
link |
01:52:57.340
or studying or listening better
link |
01:53:00.180
or any kind of behavior is good for you
link |
01:53:01.780
will actually reinforce the extent to which
link |
01:53:04.940
it is good for you at a chemical level.
link |
01:53:08.000
And a somewhat eerie example of what I just mentioned
link |
01:53:11.660
was a study that was published last year
link |
01:53:13.740
in the journal Neuron, Cell Press Journal,
link |
01:53:15.420
excellent journal, that showed that hearing something
link |
01:53:20.180
that reinforces one's prior beliefs
link |
01:53:22.920
actually can evoke dopamine release.
link |
01:53:25.380
So the dopamine pathway is so vulnerable
link |
01:53:28.460
to subjective interpretation
link |
01:53:30.660
that it actually makes it such that when we see something
link |
01:53:33.580
or hear something that validates a belief
link |
01:53:35.700
that we already have,
link |
01:53:36.840
that itself can increase dopamine release.
link |
01:53:40.560
Along the lines of how dopamine and dopamine schedules
link |
01:53:44.140
and our perception of things can shape the way
link |
01:53:46.620
that we experience things as pleasureful or not,
link |
01:53:49.520
there are beautiful studies mainly looking at sugar appetite
link |
01:53:53.340
and our sense of pleasure from sweet things,
link |
01:53:55.860
but also for savory foods, et cetera.
link |
01:53:58.660
And essentially the results that come out of this
link |
01:54:00.600
are the following.
link |
01:54:01.540
If you ingest something that you like,
link |
01:54:03.820
it tastes good to you,
link |
01:54:05.080
but then you ingest something that's even sweeter
link |
01:54:07.900
or even more savory,
link |
01:54:09.620
and then you go back to the food that you ate previously,
link |
01:54:13.540
well, you don't like it as much.
link |
01:54:15.580
And that might seem like a duh, obviously,
link |
01:54:18.300
but that shift in perception can be blocked
link |
01:54:22.560
by blocking the shift in dopamine.
link |
01:54:25.160
And so this really speaks to these peaks and valleys
link |
01:54:28.160
in dopamine that I mentioned before
link |
01:54:29.500
and how your experience of anything
link |
01:54:31.860
is going to depend on your prior experience
link |
01:54:34.700
of other things that evoke dopamine.
link |
01:54:36.860
Big dopamine release makes it more challenging
link |
01:54:39.840
to experience more big dopamine release.
link |
01:54:42.980
So dopamine is one of those things
link |
01:54:44.640
that you don't want too high or too low for too long.
link |
01:54:47.820
It's all about staying in that dynamic range,
link |
01:54:50.100
and that's going to be different for everybody.
link |
01:54:52.460
So for the very savory foods that are now everywhere,
link |
01:54:57.460
those highly savory foods are,
link |
01:54:59.740
I think they call them highly palatable foods,
link |
01:55:02.140
are making more bland foods,
link |
01:55:04.580
whole foods, meaning foods that aren't processed,
link |
01:55:07.400
it's making those taste less good, at least for a while.
link |
01:55:10.140
And all it takes is a short period of time,
link |
01:55:12.280
even just days, two days or so,
link |
01:55:14.580
of not consuming any highly palatable foods.
link |
01:55:17.940
And suddenly, broccoli with just a little bit of seasoning
link |
01:55:22.420
tastes delicious to you, all right?
link |
01:55:24.500
So again, this just speaks to the fact
link |
01:55:26.620
that dopamine is this universal currency.
link |
01:55:29.140
It establishes value based on not just
link |
01:55:31.980
what you're experiencing in the moment,
link |
01:55:33.200
but what you experienced in the days and minutes before.
link |
01:55:36.580
Now that you understand how your previous level of dopamine
link |
01:55:40.400
relates to your current level of dopamine
link |
01:55:42.660
and how your current level of dopamine
link |
01:55:45.200
will influence your future level of dopamine,
link |
01:55:48.460
it should become obvious why things like pornography,
link |
01:55:52.560
not just the accessibility of pornography,
link |
01:55:54.660
but the intensity of pornography can negatively shape
link |
01:55:59.620
real world romantic and sexual interactions.
link |
01:56:02.660
This is a serious concern.
link |
01:56:04.020
The discussion is happening now.
link |
01:56:06.180
The underlying neurobiological mechanisms
link |
01:56:08.260
you now understand, and this isn't to pass judgment
link |
01:56:11.520
on whether or not people like or don't like pornography.
link |
01:56:14.740
That's an ethical discussion,
link |
01:56:15.900
and it's a moral discussion that has to be decided
link |
01:56:18.020
for each individual by virtue of age, et cetera.
link |
01:56:21.300
But again, any activity that evokes a lot of dopamine release
link |
01:56:27.700
will make it harder to achieve the same level
link |
01:56:32.140
and certainly the greater level of dopamine
link |
01:56:34.560
through a subsequent interaction.
link |
01:56:36.840
So yes, indeed, many people are addicted to pornography
link |
01:56:40.400
and yes, indeed, many people who regularly indulge
link |
01:56:44.500
in pornography experience challenges
link |
01:56:46.800
in real world romantic interactions.
link |
01:56:49.100
You now understand the mechanisms behind what I'm telling you.
link |
01:56:52.260
Now, there are circumstances in which increasing levels
link |
01:56:55.020
of dopamine is desirable and advantageous
link |
01:56:57.820
and clinically helpful.
link |
01:56:59.380
Good example of this would be the drug Wellbutrin,
link |
01:57:01.740
also called buprenorphine,
link |
01:57:03.260
which increases dopamine and norepinephrine.
link |
01:57:06.140
Wellbutrin and buprenorphine was developed
link |
01:57:07.820
as an alternative treatment for depression
link |
01:57:10.180
because some people who take the so-called SSRI,
link |
01:57:12.820
selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors,
link |
01:57:15.580
which as the name suggests, increase serotonin,
link |
01:57:17.820
suffer from serotonin-related side effects,
link |
01:57:21.360
things like decreased appetite, decreased libido,
link |
01:57:24.740
or sometimes increased appetite,
link |
01:57:27.080
or other side effects that they don't want.
link |
01:57:30.360
And while butrin seems to avoid the sexual side effects,
link |
01:57:34.220
it can blunt appetite and these sorts of things
link |
01:57:38.460
because of the increase in norepinephrine and dopamine,
link |
01:57:41.840
increases levels of motivation and craving,
link |
01:57:44.500
but also can create a state of elevated alertness
link |
01:57:49.140
that can sometimes get in the way of healthy eating
link |
01:57:52.120
and things of that sort.
link |
01:57:52.960
So one has to work with their clinician,
link |
01:57:55.500
as a psychiatrist, it is a prescription drug,
link |
01:57:57.960
in order to find the dosage of Wellbutrin
link |
01:57:59.900
that's correct for them.
link |
01:58:01.820
In addition, things like Wellbutrin and buprenorphine
link |
01:58:04.400
can increase anxiety because of the way
link |
01:58:06.500
that dopamine and norepinephrine are stimulating
link |
01:58:09.060
and tend to place people into heightened levels
link |
01:58:10.940
of alertness.
link |
01:58:11.760
Nonetheless, many people have gained terrific relief
link |
01:58:14.660
from depression from Wellbutrin, buprenorphine,
link |
01:58:17.260
and many of those same people had serious trouble
link |
01:58:19.780
with some of the SSRIs.
link |
01:58:21.060
So it does seem to be a very useful drug
link |
01:58:23.180
in certain contexts, both for depression
link |
01:58:24.860
and for the treatment of smoking,
link |
01:58:26.820
for people desiring to quit smoking.
link |
01:58:29.140
And of course, there are a lot of people out there
link |
01:58:31.220
who are seeking to increase their baseline levels
link |
01:58:33.500
of dopamine without taking
link |
01:58:35.820
any prescription pharmaceutical compounds.
link |
01:58:38.660
And nowadays there exist a lot of supplements to do that.
link |
01:58:42.420
The two most common ones that are directly
link |
01:58:44.760
within the dopamine pathway are mucuna prurines,
link |
01:58:48.420
which is actually a velvety bean whose contents are L-DOPA.
link |
01:58:54.340
Believe it or not, the content of this bean
link |
01:58:56.300
is the precursor to dopamine.
link |
01:58:58.600
So mucuna prurines is sold over the counter,
link |
01:59:01.500
at least in the United States,
link |
01:59:03.180
and it literally is the precursor to dopamine.
link |
01:59:07.060
Meaning if you take it, you will experience
link |
01:59:09.160
very large increases in dopamine.
link |
01:59:11.140
Those increases are transient and very, very intense.
link |
01:59:14.060
And in fact, if you look at the constellation of effects
link |
01:59:17.780
of mucuna prurines, what you find is that
link |
01:59:20.320
they're pretty striking and they look a lot like,
link |
01:59:22.880
if not identical to, L-DOPA.
link |
01:59:25.640
The most obvious of those is in the context
link |
01:59:28.340
of Parkinson's disease.
link |
01:59:29.660
There are at least five studies that have shown
link |
01:59:31.740
that mucuna prurines can reduce the symptoms
link |
01:59:35.140
of Parkinson's disease, much in the same way
link |
01:59:37.400
that L-DOPA can reduce the symptoms of Parkinson's disease.
link |
01:59:41.300
And that shouldn't come as any surprise,
link |
01:59:42.900
given what I just told you,
link |
01:59:43.820
that mucuna prurines is essentially L-DOPA.
link |
01:59:46.820
It also can reduce a particular hormone called prolactin.
link |
01:59:50.240
Dopamine and prolactin tend to be
link |
01:59:51.860
in somewhat push-pull fashion.
link |
01:59:53.880
When dopamine is up, prolactin is down and vice versa.
link |
01:59:57.240
Prolactin is involved in milk let down in women.
link |
01:59:59.580
It's involved in setting the refractory period
link |
02:00:02.300
for sex after ejaculation in males.
link |
02:00:05.980
The reason mating can occur and then not occur
link |
02:00:08.560
after ejaculation is because of an increase in prolactin.
link |
02:00:11.220
Mucuna prurines is often used to blunt prolactin.
link |
02:00:14.900
And there are actually a couple of studies showing
link |
02:00:17.020
that it can indeed do that.
link |
02:00:19.460
Mucuna prurines has a number of other effects
link |
02:00:21.760
that lie in the sort of sex and reproduction pathway
link |
02:00:24.900
that are worth noting.
link |
02:00:26.980
Sperm concentration, sperm quality
link |
02:00:29.660
is actually greatly increased by mucuna prurines.
link |
02:00:32.540
These are kind of curious effects
link |
02:00:33.780
until you understand a little bit more
link |
02:00:35.020
about the biology of dopamine,
link |
02:00:36.380
which I'll mention in a moment.
link |
02:00:37.900
But there are several studies, four in fact,
link |
02:00:41.680
that describe how mucuna prurines can increase sperm count,
link |
02:00:47.040
sperm quality and sperm motility.
link |
02:00:49.640
So for those of you seeking to conceive children,
link |
02:00:52.340
mucuna prurines might be an interesting choice
link |
02:00:54.940
if you're interested in exploring non-prescription compounds.
link |
02:00:58.100
However, I should mention
link |
02:01:00.300
that anytime you consume a substance
link |
02:01:03.580
that increases dopamine by mimicking dopamine
link |
02:01:07.660
or acting as a direct precursor to dopamine,
link |
02:01:10.620
there's almost inevitably a crash
link |
02:01:13.540
or a reduction in the baseline in dopamine
link |
02:01:16.420
that we referred to previously.
link |
02:01:18.660
So many people who take mucuna prurines
link |
02:01:20.780
feel really elevated, really motivated, really alert,
link |
02:01:24.860
all the sorts of things that one would expect
link |
02:01:26.620
from a dopaminergic drug, which mucuna prurines is,
link |
02:01:30.380
and then they feel a low or a reduction in drive
link |
02:01:34.700
and excitement and enthusiasm after the drug wears off,
link |
02:01:38.140
just like they would with any other
link |
02:01:40.140
dopamine-increasing compound.
link |
02:01:41.960
For that reason, many people have turned
link |
02:01:45.340
to the use of L-tyrosine.
link |
02:01:47.380
L-tyrosine is an amino acid precursor to L-DOPA,
link |
02:01:50.740
so it lies further up the dopamine synthesis pathway.
link |
02:01:54.180
And nowadays, it's very common
link |
02:01:55.780
because L-tyrosine is sold over the counter
link |
02:01:58.420
in the United States,
link |
02:02:00.060
that people will take L-tyrosine as a way
link |
02:02:02.860
to get more energized, alert, and focused.
link |
02:02:06.120
Indeed, there are data
link |
02:02:07.480
that L-tyrosine will accomplish that.
link |
02:02:10.460
L-tyrosine is typically taken in capsule form
link |
02:02:13.140
or powder form, anywhere from 500 to 750
link |
02:02:16.740
to 1,000 milligrams.
link |
02:02:18.500
It is a potent stimulus for increasing dopamine,
link |
02:02:21.840
and the timescale for increasing dopamine
link |
02:02:23.700
is about 30 to 45 minutes after ingestion,
link |
02:02:26.500
dopamine levels start to peak.
link |
02:02:28.340
The classic study that really nailed down the fact
link |
02:02:31.660
that tyrosine has this effect
link |
02:02:34.020
was published way back in 1983,
link |
02:02:36.700
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism,
link |
02:02:39.520
that directly compared L-tyrosine supplementation
link |
02:02:42.900
with tryptophan ingestion on plasma dopamine and serotonin,
link |
02:02:48.400
tryptophan being a precursor to serotonin.
link |
02:02:51.340
And indeed, what they found
link |
02:02:53.020
is that ingestion of L-tyrosine can increase
link |
02:02:56.200
the amount of dopamine circulating in the blood
link |
02:02:58.780
and in the brain too, of course.
link |
02:03:01.920
The tyrosine ingestion induced dopamine increases
link |
02:03:04.540
within 45 minutes, and they were short lasting.
link |
02:03:07.620
After about 30 minutes, the effect had dissipated,
link |
02:03:10.960
meaning the levels of dopamine had dropped down to baseline.
link |
02:03:13.940
And even though they didn't look at levels
link |
02:03:16.060
of baseline dopamine past that time point,
link |
02:03:19.140
the expectation based on everything we know
link |
02:03:21.600
about dopamine biology is that it would then drop
link |
02:03:24.180
below baseline due to the depletion
link |
02:03:27.240
of the readily reservable pool of dopamine vesicles
link |
02:03:29.900
that we talked about way back
link |
02:03:30.960
at the beginning of this episode.
link |
02:03:33.320
The nice thing about this study
link |
02:03:34.340
is it does show specificity of effect
link |
02:03:36.340
because ingestion of tryptophan did not increase dopamine,
link |
02:03:40.300
instead it increased serotonin.
link |
02:03:42.300
So there's really specificity of these pathways
link |
02:03:44.260
that rule out any placebo type effects.
link |
02:03:48.180
I'm not suggesting that anybody, everybody
link |
02:03:51.140
increase their dopamine levels
link |
02:03:52.660
by way of tyrosine and macuna purines.
link |
02:03:55.900
For those of you that are seeking
link |
02:03:57.060
to increase your dopamine levels without prescription drugs,
link |
02:03:59.780
those are the most direct route to that.
link |
02:04:01.900
Of course, if you have a pre-existing
link |
02:04:04.060
dopaminergic condition, so schizophrenia
link |
02:04:06.900
or psychosis of any kind, bipolar, anxiety,
link |
02:04:11.560
things like macuna purines and L-tyrosine
link |
02:04:14.100
will not be good for you.
link |
02:04:15.860
And if you don't, you should just understand
link |
02:04:18.900
and expect that it's going to lead
link |
02:04:21.260
to an increase in dopamine.
link |
02:04:23.340
You'll certainly feel an elevated state.
link |
02:04:25.140
For some of you that might be agitating,
link |
02:04:27.820
for some of you that might be really pleasurable,
link |
02:04:29.580
and then you will feel a crash afterwards.
link |
02:04:31.880
How deep is that crash will really depend on your biology
link |
02:04:35.140
and where your dopamine baseline began.
link |
02:04:38.300
So I personally am not a fan of using things
link |
02:04:41.020
like macuna purines at all for myself,
link |
02:04:43.620
for the reasons I mentioned earlier,
link |
02:04:45.680
just too intense and too much of a crash.
link |
02:04:48.280
I do use L-tyrosine from time to time
link |
02:04:50.700
for enhancing focus and motivation,
link |
02:04:52.460
but I want to emphasize from time to time.
link |
02:04:55.180
So I might use it once a week, occasionally twice a week,
link |
02:04:58.460
but I've never been one to take L-tyrosine regularly
link |
02:05:01.340
in order to focus or train or do any kind of mental work.
link |
02:05:04.900
I just don't want to rely on any exogenous substance
link |
02:05:08.940
in order to get my dopamine circuits activated.
link |
02:05:12.320
And I don't want to experience the drop in dopamine
link |
02:05:15.140
that inevitably occurs some period of time afterwards.
link |
02:05:18.420
I should also mention things that can reduce your levels
link |
02:05:22.260
of baseline dopamine.
link |
02:05:23.960
One that is rarely discussed is melatonin.
link |
02:05:27.600
I have talked before on this podcast about melatonin,
link |
02:05:30.460
why I am not a fan of using melatonin
link |
02:05:33.220
in order to enhance sleep.
link |
02:05:35.100
It can help one get to sleep, but not stay asleep.
link |
02:05:37.660
Dr. Matt Walker, sleep expert
link |
02:05:39.300
from University of California, Berkeley.
link |
02:05:41.400
I think I don't want to put words in his mouth,
link |
02:05:43.840
but in our discussion about melatonin on this podcast,
link |
02:05:48.620
when Matt was a guest and in his book and on other podcasts,
link |
02:05:51.420
Matt has generally stated that the use of melatonin
link |
02:05:54.660
except for treatment of jet lag is generally not a good idea
link |
02:05:58.260
and I agree.
link |
02:05:59.740
I think that melatonin is not often thought about
link |
02:06:03.180
as impacting the dopamine pathway,
link |
02:06:04.820
but there's at least one study published in 2001.
link |
02:06:08.660
First author is Nishiyama, just as it sounds,
link |
02:06:12.540
it's spelled just as it sounds,
link |
02:06:14.480
acute effects of melatonin administration
link |
02:06:16.440
on cardiovascular autonomic regulation in healthy men.
link |
02:06:19.000
So the study wasn't specifically about dopamine,
link |
02:06:21.800
but they looked at norepinephrine and dopamine levels
link |
02:06:24.180
and they found a statistically significant decrease
link |
02:06:28.720
in dopamine 60 minutes after melatonin administration.
link |
02:06:32.700
I've talked before about how viewing bright lights
link |
02:06:36.060
between the hours of 10 p.m. and 4 a.m.
link |
02:06:38.160
has been shown in studies by Dr. Samir Hattar,
link |
02:06:40.480
David Berson, excellent circadian scientists
link |
02:06:44.260
to reduce levels of dopamine for several days
link |
02:06:46.980
after that light exposure.
link |
02:06:48.280
So dim the lights at night.
link |
02:06:50.420
If you can avoid exogenous melatonin,
link |
02:06:53.660
meaning if you don't have to take melatonin
link |
02:06:56.240
and you can find a better alternative,
link |
02:06:58.080
that would be a good idea
link |
02:06:58.960
if you want to maintain healthy levels of dopamine.
link |
02:07:01.700
Now, there is one compound that you are all familiar with
link |
02:07:04.460
and you've probably actually taken without realizing it
link |
02:07:07.540
that increases dopamine
link |
02:07:08.780
and that's something called PEA for phenylethylamine,
link |
02:07:12.980
technically beta phenylethylamine.
link |
02:07:16.060
And PEA is found in various foods.
link |
02:07:19.180
Chocolate just happens to be one enriched in PEA
link |
02:07:23.020
and can increase synaptic levels of dopamine.
link |
02:07:26.700
I personally take PEA from time to time
link |
02:07:29.620
as a focus and work aid
link |
02:07:32.700
in order to do intense bouts of work.
link |
02:07:35.400
Again, I don't do that too often.
link |
02:07:36.860
This might be once a week or once every two weeks.
link |
02:07:39.300
I might use it for training, but typically I don't.
link |
02:07:41.660
It's usually for mental work.
link |
02:07:42.980
And I will take 500 milligrams of PEA
link |
02:07:46.180
and I'll take 300 milligrams of alpha GPC.
link |
02:07:49.220
That's something that I personally do.
link |
02:07:50.780
That's what's right for me.
link |
02:07:51.840
It's within my margins of safety for my health.
link |
02:07:54.320
Again, you have to check with your doctor
link |
02:07:55.940
and decide what's right for you.
link |
02:07:57.940
It leads to a sharp but very transient increase in dopamine
link |
02:08:02.500
that lasts about 30 to 45 minutes.
link |
02:08:05.500
And at least in my system, I found to be much more regulated
link |
02:08:10.100
and kind of even than something like L-tyrosine
link |
02:08:13.280
and certainly much more regulated and even
link |
02:08:15.620
and lower dopamine release than something
link |
02:08:17.980
like mucuna prurines.
link |
02:08:20.200
One of the lesser talked about compounds that's out there
link |
02:08:22.820
but that's gaining popularity for increasing dopamine
link |
02:08:26.540
and as a so-called nootropic
link |
02:08:28.300
is something called Hooperzine A.
link |
02:08:30.580
Hooperzine A is a compound sold over the counter,
link |
02:08:33.780
at least in the United States,
link |
02:08:35.180
that can increase acetylcholine transmission,
link |
02:08:38.100
a different neuromodulator entirely.
link |
02:08:40.380
But what's interesting is that Hooperzine A somehow
link |
02:08:43.660
by way of interactions between the cholinergic system
link |
02:08:46.660
and the dopaminergic system leads to increases in dopamine
link |
02:08:51.020
in the medial prefrontal cortex and hippocampus.
link |
02:08:53.660
Hippocampus, of course, being an area of the brain
link |
02:08:55.620
associated with learning and memory
link |
02:08:57.180
and prefrontal cortex being associated
link |
02:08:58.980
with the mesolimbic pathway decision-making focus, et cetera.
link |
02:09:02.260
And so I think the reason why we're seeing an increase
link |
02:09:04.580
in popularity of companies, including Hooperzine A
link |
02:09:07.980
and nootropic compounds is both
link |
02:09:10.020
for the cholinergic stimulating properties
link |
02:09:12.140
but also for stimulating dopamine release.
link |
02:09:15.520
I personally have never tried Hooperzine A.
link |
02:09:17.500
You can go to examine.com or put Hooperzine A into PubMed
link |
02:09:21.440
if you'd like to search around
link |
02:09:22.660
and see some of the science behind it.
link |
02:09:24.340
Again, I'm not recommending anyone take these things.
link |
02:09:26.300
In fact, I recommend against anyone just diving in
link |
02:09:28.460
and starting to consume things without gaining knowledge
link |
02:09:31.180
about how they function and whether or not
link |
02:09:32.820
they're right for you.
link |
02:09:33.940
But nonetheless, I think in the years to come,
link |
02:09:36.080
we are going to see a lot more of L-tyrosine,
link |
02:09:39.320
PEA, phenylethylamine, and Hooperzine
link |
02:09:42.300
as a way of tapping into the dopaminergic
link |
02:09:44.720
and cholinergic circuits,
link |
02:09:45.960
certainly along with things like alpha-GPC
link |
02:09:48.360
as non-prescription, short-lived,
link |
02:09:50.860
somewhat milder alternatives to things
link |
02:09:54.180
that really spike dopamine,
link |
02:09:56.340
things like Adderall, Ritalin,
link |
02:09:57.740
modafinil, R-modafinil, and similar.
link |
02:10:00.620
And I can't help but share with you one more result.
link |
02:10:02.900
It's not related to pharmacology.
link |
02:10:04.900
It's related to behaviors and social interactions.
link |
02:10:08.540
And that's the very interesting,
link |
02:10:10.220
and I would say important finding
link |
02:10:12.340
that was made a few years ago by my colleague, Rob Malenka,
link |
02:10:15.140
who's in our Department of Psychiatry at Stanford,
link |
02:10:17.500
showing that oxytocin and social connection
link |
02:10:20.820
is actually directly stimulating the dopamine pathway.
link |
02:10:24.740
I think for many years, all of us, including me,
link |
02:10:28.780
would hear and thought that oxytocin
link |
02:10:31.900
was in the serotonergic pathway,
link |
02:10:33.780
that it was about pair bonding,
link |
02:10:35.300
and it was about some of these neuromodulators
link |
02:10:37.400
that were more associated with things related
link |
02:10:40.080
to feeling good with what we have in the present moment.
link |
02:10:43.500
That's typically what we think of
link |
02:10:44.620
when we think of the opioid system
link |
02:10:46.140
or the serotonergic system.
link |
02:10:48.080
The dopamine system is really about seeking and reward.
link |
02:10:50.920
But in a paper published in 2017 in the journal Science,
link |
02:10:53.820
excellent journal, the paper's titled
link |
02:10:57.020
Gating of Social Reward by Oxytocin in the Ventral Tegmental Area.
link |
02:11:02.580
You now know what the ventral tegmental area,
link |
02:11:04.180
it's that area of the mesolimbic pathway.
link |
02:11:06.280
What this paper essentially showed is that oxytocin,
link |
02:11:10.380
social connection and pair bonding itself
link |
02:11:13.120
triggers dopamine release.
link |
02:11:14.980
And as everyone read this result,
link |
02:11:17.180
we all realized, ah, this makes total sense
link |
02:11:20.720
that for the evolution of our species,
link |
02:11:22.620
indeed for any species where social connections
link |
02:11:25.140
are important, it's also important
link |
02:11:27.420
to go seek social connections.
link |
02:11:29.260
And so while it's fun to think about pharmacology
link |
02:11:31.580
and underlying neural circuitry and cold water baths
link |
02:11:34.900
and all these different things related to dopamine schedules
link |
02:11:38.500
and reward mechanisms and attaching reward to effort
link |
02:11:41.320
and all the various things that we've talked about today
link |
02:11:43.340
in terms of science and tools and protocols,
link |
02:11:46.700
I'd be remiss if I didn't include
link |
02:11:48.340
description of this result and just emphasize
link |
02:11:51.060
that social connections, close social connections
link |
02:11:55.220
in particular that evoke oxytocin release.
link |
02:11:57.340
So those are romantic type, those are parent-child type,
link |
02:12:01.220
those are friendship related,
link |
02:12:02.660
and those can even be just friends at a distance related.
link |
02:12:06.540
It doesn't actually require skin contact
link |
02:12:08.740
to get oxytocin release,
link |
02:12:11.340
but oxytocin release is central
link |
02:12:13.340
to stimulating the dopamine pathways.
link |
02:12:15.900
So the take-home message there is quite simple.
link |
02:12:18.720
Engage in, pursue quality, healthy social interactions.
link |
02:12:24.080
I know I've covered a lot of material today.
link |
02:12:26.300
I've really tried hard to focus on things
link |
02:12:28.120
that lie directly within the dopamine pathway
link |
02:12:31.260
and circuitries, as well as things
link |
02:12:33.400
that directly stimulate those pathways and circuitries.
link |
02:12:36.960
What I haven't talked about are all the things
link |
02:12:39.560
that indirectly serve the dopamine pathways.
link |
02:12:42.880
And out there on the internet
link |
02:12:44.320
and indeed in the scientific literature,
link |
02:12:46.360
you will find, for instance,
link |
02:12:47.640
that things like maca root can increase dopamine,
link |
02:12:50.200
things like the gut microbiome can influence dopamine.
link |
02:12:53.520
And indeed they can,
link |
02:12:54.920
but they do that through indirect mechanisms
link |
02:12:57.040
by creating an environment, a milieu,
link |
02:12:59.960
in which dopamine and dopamine circuits can flourish.
link |
02:13:03.440
Maca is a good example of that.
link |
02:13:04.800
It will reduce cortisol
link |
02:13:06.320
and through some indirect pathways related to cortisol
link |
02:13:09.380
can increase dopamine,
link |
02:13:10.840
but it's not a direct increase in dopamine.
link |
02:13:13.060
And so as a consequence, it's rather subtle
link |
02:13:15.160
compared to the various compounds and behaviors
link |
02:13:17.380
that I talked about today.
link |
02:13:18.740
Indeed, cold water exposure leads to huge increases
link |
02:13:23.240
in dopamine, as we talked about before,
link |
02:13:25.540
and very sustained ones at that.
link |
02:13:28.480
I realize in giving you a lot of information
link |
02:13:31.000
about science and mechanism,
link |
02:13:32.560
all the way from psychological and biological
link |
02:13:34.660
to circuitry and synaptic transmission,
link |
02:13:36.500
volumetric transmission and so forth,
link |
02:13:39.100
that it might seem overwhelming.
link |
02:13:40.720
The most important things to understand
link |
02:13:42.560
are that these dopamine pathways
link |
02:13:43.800
really are under your control.
link |
02:13:45.920
And the locus of control resides in the fact
link |
02:13:49.040
that your previous levels of dopamine
link |
02:13:51.280
are influencing your levels of dopamine right now,
link |
02:13:54.060
and your current levels of dopamine
link |
02:13:55.560
and where you take them next
link |
02:13:56.960
will influence your dopamine levels
link |
02:13:58.520
in the next days and weeks to come.
link |
02:14:00.300
So I hope both with the mechanisms that you now have in hand
link |
02:14:04.000
plus some of the tools to tap into the dopaminergic system,
link |
02:14:06.720
both behavioral, pharmacologic,
link |
02:14:08.560
prescription and non-prescription, et cetera,
link |
02:14:10.760
that you'll feel that you have more control
link |
02:14:12.180
over your dopamine system
link |
02:14:13.440
and certainly that you have a better understanding
link |
02:14:15.480
of your dopamine system
link |
02:14:16.840
so that you can modulate and adjust your levels of dopamine
link |
02:14:19.840
in the ways that serve you best.
link |
02:14:22.080
If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast,
link |
02:14:25.840
please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
link |
02:14:27.600
That's a terrific way to support us.
link |
02:14:29.480
In addition, please leave us a comment
link |
02:14:31.480
or a suggestion for a guest you'd like us to interview
link |
02:14:34.880
or a topic you'd like us to cover.
link |
02:14:36.800
In addition, please subscribe to us on Apple and Spotify.
link |
02:14:40.960
And on Apple, you have the opportunity
link |
02:14:42.520
to leave us up to a five-star review
link |
02:14:44.520
and to leave us a comment there as well.
link |
02:14:47.080
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned
link |
02:14:48.960
at the beginning of today's podcast.
link |
02:14:50.860
That's a terrific way to support us.
link |
02:14:52.920
In addition, if you'd like to support the Huberman Lab
link |
02:14:55.080
and research at Stanford on stress,
link |
02:14:57.360
stress mitigation and human performance,
link |
02:14:59.480
you can do that by going to hubermanlab.stanford.edu
link |
02:15:03.360
slash giving, and there you can make
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02:15:05.800
a tax-deductible donation to the research in my laboratory.
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02:15:09.660
In addition, we have a Patreon.
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02:15:11.480
It's patreon.com slash Andrew Huberman,
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02:15:14.520
and there you can support the podcast
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02:15:16.360
at any level that you like.
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02:15:18.320
Today and on previous podcast episodes,
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02:15:20.460
we talked a bit about supplements.
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02:15:22.360
Supplements certainly aren't necessary,
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02:15:24.300
but many people find them beneficial
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02:15:25.920
for things like adjusting their levels of dopamine
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02:15:27.920
or for other purposes.
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02:15:29.920
If you're going to use supplements,
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02:15:31.080
it's very important that the supplements you use
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02:15:33.280
be of very high quality and that the quantity of ingredients
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02:15:36.720
that are on the label match what's actually in those bottles.
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02:15:39.560
For that reason, we've partnered with Thorne, T-H-O-R-N-E,
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02:15:42.840
because Thorne has the highest levels of stringency
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02:15:45.040
with respect to quality and how much of each supplement
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02:15:48.840
they put in the products that they sell.
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02:15:51.040
If you'd like to see the supplements that I take,
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02:15:52.840
you can go to Thorne, thorne.com slash the letter U
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02:15:57.080
slash Huberman, and there you can see what I take.
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02:15:59.260
You can get 20% off any of those supplements,
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02:16:02.000
and if you navigate into the Thorne site
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02:16:04.040
through that portal, then you can get 20% off
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02:16:07.040
any of the supplements that Thorne makes.
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02:16:09.060
If you're not already following us
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02:16:10.360
on Instagram at Huberman Lab, please do so.
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02:16:12.740
There, I teach neuroscience tools and information.
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02:16:15.960
Oftentimes, it's tools and information
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02:16:17.580
that I don't cover on the podcast.
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02:16:19.660
We're also on Twitter, also at Huberman Lab.
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02:16:22.280
And last, but certainly not least,
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thank you for your interest in science.
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02:16:26.300
I'll see you next time.